So about Summoner...

[Zyneste]

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)

That didnt happen. There was a fear that it would be nerfed from 350 to something else, because players felt that 2 GCDS adding up to 700 potency in 3 seconds cast, 5 seconds recast, was just too front loaded and good. Thankfully, SE made no changes there.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
Have you not played Red Mage for end game? It really is as bad as most players have been saying so in this thread.

Yes I have, and I do hardcore progression with the class. I'm telling you why RDM won't/can't receive a significant buff right now. Everyone knows there's a dps disparity between RDM and the other 2 casters, but that disparity is the trade off for the utility RDM brings. People can argue all day that "well verraise doesnt matter after prog!" and it doesn't matter because that utility exists. I'm not blaming RDM players for wanting a change, but I blame them for blindly ignoring the fact that they have one of the most OP utility abilities in the game but want to throw numbers to say "well we're not strong enough".

[xxPheNoMeNa]

and about being overpowered... smn still was strong at release of 4.0 Eirene & a handful of "true 1%" smn showed that already, while casuals and (wannabe-) pros cried for balance.

It wasn't really "strong" at the start of 4.0, it appeared strong because a lot of classes needed buffs. Think how bad DRG and MCH were at the very beginning of the expansion, and others like BRD, BLM, etc. received buffs as well. Even we asked for balance changes because there "were" glaring issues with the class, although a lot of it revolved around aspects like mp management and recovering after dying (dying on SMN was just far more punishing than what other dps classes would suffer). The other issue is that radiant shield procs were factored into parses, so when people swapped to Ifrit and you saw these higher SMN parses, that was in part because of radiant shield being added to it. Imagine a ninja having their trick attack contribution factored into their parses and not individually to every person. See how easily that can be flawed? The moment DRG and MCH received their buffs, the meta immediately went back to double ranged comps and even with the 4.1 changes to SMN, a lot of people still questioned whether it was better than MCH. So people "thought" SMN after 4.1 was overpowered, but the very best groups still favored MCH... Was it really that overpowered or are other casters just undertuned (more specifically BLM)?

[Zyneste]

In complete honesty, I feel RDM is really close to where they should be. In my eyes the DPS list should be as follows:

1. BLM 100th [Low Defensive utility and Low resoruce utility (role skills.)]
2. SAM 98 [Low defensive utility (role skills)]
3. MNK 95 [Low DPS utility, low/moderate defensive utility (role skills/mantra)]
4. SMN 93 [Moderate recovery potential, Moderate DPS utility, low resource utility]
5. MCH 92 [High Resource, Moderate defensive, Moderate DPS utility]
6. DRG 91 [Very High DPS utility and low defensive utility]
7. RDM 90 [High recovery potential and low DPS utility, low resource utility, low defensive utility[Role skills]]
8. NIN 89 [Niche Aggro, High DPS utility and low defensive utility (role skills)]
9. BRD 88 [High resource, High Defensive and High DPS utility]


SMN is usually 97-100th. This is because of their burst windows working really well with the content and their pets keeping consistent damage even during mechanics. Personally, I feel SMN power creeped it's way to the top after complaints for its original poor playstyle. I mean honestly, SE can't possibly tune every fight to manage the advantages of each fight, but somehow SMN is just built in such a way that it gets these advantages.

[Maero]

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)

That could very well be, i mean't more of actual changes that actually benefit the job. Every other job has seen at least some changes (even Sam as bad as some may think it is)

Vercure is a level 54 Spell while Verraise is Level 64. Summoner gets raise at level 18, so how is it that this is a valid arguement? Embolden is also very weak
Smn is equally as good for progression.
@ Neela, i am on the same boat as others in that i would like changes to embolden, a slight damage boost and possibly just remove verraise.
We had 3 Red Mages (including myself) when we started Savage, and well now i am Ninja and the other 2 are blm and smn.

[Neela]

@ Neela, i am on the same boat as others in that i would like changes to embolden, a slight damage boost and possibly just remove verraise.
We had 3 Red Mages (including myself) when we started Savage, and well now i am Ninja and the other 2 are blm and smn.

but that would f.e just balanced content like eureka not potd/hoh - vercure is the key skill for necromancer... I know its picky but either way both skills vice versa would still be a hugh advantage out of savage compared to other cls.

I'm personally with this statement here:

Everyone knows there's a dps disparity between RDM and the other 2 casters, but that disparity is the trade off for the utility RDM brings. People can argue all day that "well verraise doesnt matter after prog!" and it doesn't matter because that utility exists. I'm not blaming RDM players for wanting a change, but I blame them for blindly ignoring the fact that they have one of the most OP utility abilities in the game but want to throw numbers to say "well we're not strong enough".

that may not count for you but for most rdms they just talk bout pot. : /

[HyperiusUltima]

SNIP

Well, the statement is pretty true. RDM pales in comparison to other casters a majority of the time(even pales to SMN) due to some of the potencies on their magic. Embolden also is a bad design idea in the fact that it decays. If they had to change Embolden, it needs to effect all jobs’Damage Types as well as keep a more consistent damage increase(with a shorter timer if need be).

[Capn_Goggles]

I'm not blaming RDM players for wanting a change, but I blame them for blindly ignoring the fact that they have one of the most OP utility abilities in the game but want to throw numbers to say "well we're not strong enough".

Because being able to raise people isn't useful outside of initial progression and pubs, and players want their job to be viable at all times and not just when people are dropping like bricks in the water. Being able to spam raise is useful, but it comes at the expense of having a useful DPS kit in a game where, frankly, the only things that matter are damage output and your ability to better others' damage outputs.

[Megguido]

Because being able to raise people isn't useful outside of initial progression and pubs, and players want their job to be viable at all times and not just when people are dropping like bricks in the water. Being able to spam raise is useful, but it comes at the expense of having a useful DPS kit in a game where, frankly, the only things that matter are damage output and your ability to better others' damage outputs.

Cause, yeah, progression is definitely not a big part of raiding. /s
It's actually the case. All jobs are viable. We cleared Sigmascape savage just fine with a RDM. With a SAM and a BRD (and no DRG). If people don't mess up, enrage timers aren't even close. And if people mess up, we can actually chain raise and try to push as far as possible. Please tell me how you raise two people in the middle of Trine as SMN.

If you don't want to destroy your DPS when raising as a SMN, you have to keep Swiftcast and use it when you're either not in DWT or in Bahamut phase. RDM's uninterruptible burst window is like 7s long (melee combo + flare/holy). SMN's is 16s (or 36s every other minute). Also SMN's pet can be killed by some AoEs (often AoE tankbusters like Hyperdrive, if the pet is too close to the tank after moving for example), and Swiftcast is very handy to summon it back.

I mean, there are several possibilities to answer players' call about RDM:
- Boost their damage to SMN's lvl, and you get a SMN with an easier rotation and a chain-raise
- Boost their damage and nerf their raise, so you basically have two identical jobs. SMN and RDM would both have the same damage, the same raise, the same party buffs (yay embolden and radiant shield)
- Give them a party boost to make its damage contribution higher

What makes RDM special IMO, is its ability to raise people so fast, the straightforward rotation, and the ability to burst very easily (ghost cheese on O5S works wonders with a RDM for example).

Sounds like DRK "mains" that complain WAR is doing everything better than DRK.

[TelosNox]

Please tell me how you raise two people in the middle of Trine as SMN.

Two ppl are raised by the healers, as SMN I should be 3rd. So I see no problem here.