So about Summoner...

[Neela]

rampant strawmanning

hmm... i see

..well we should stop that here, tho yeah was nice talking to you as well.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

but I was happy in arr & hw as well and I will stick to smn in 5.0 as well even if we are back to bottom like we were used to be. I don't chose my main based on fflogs performance or raidspots. I play smn cause I like pet cls in mmos. switching mains to perform "best" is just another personal problem of people who can't stand mid or bottom. but often the things those people complain about are actually not that important/relevant in an objective point of view - f.e. "good blm do high dmg, can clear all savage tier and even ultimate" this is true no doubt around it everything else in this thread is personal ego driven - easy like that.

^ I played SMN in HW when it was still considered garbage-tier, and also through the start of SB. I picked it up when I realized that BLM didn't have Bio/Miasma/Etc that I was expecting from playing single player Final Fantasies. My biggest disappointment is that it's no longer a DoT mage, but I got really attached to the pet mechanics of it, so I still love it.

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

[Neela]

gosh finally someone who understands what my comments are all about – thx! :3

[Zerathor]

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

Aight, brb one sec. OK, i'm back-
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/2880611
I did it. I got gud. Blm still needs support to be a real competitive option ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Any other assumptions? Or does your name describe your post?

[Duskane]

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

[Dualgunner]

Show me a RDM main beating a SMN main in serious content and I'll show you a bad SMN main who for whatever reason isn't optimized whatsoever.

Edit: regarding "you're only blaming class balance because you're bad!" https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/186645

I'm not as impressive as Zera is, but there ya go. Orange to purple with 86.5 average best. Could I improve? Yes absolutely. However I'm by no means uninformed on how to optimize and get the most out of RDM just because I see the reality that Summoner plum beats it out.

[Zerathor]

snip.

Won't lie, that's still really impressive for a rdm to pull off. Pretty nice (especially lacking battle litany).

But yeah, there's dualgunner's point:
outside of world first prog rdm falls behind hard, and outside of needing to carry a group past enrage that doesn't die but still lacks dps, blm falls behind. Smn is almost equal to rdm for prog value while providing enough dps to be viable in speed kill comps. And there lies the issue discussed.

Smn's kit seems like it should be jack of all trades, master of none, but it's currently about master of all.

[Neela]

fixed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Megguido]

Current savage fights are tuned in such a way DPS checks and enrage timers are possible to pass with any team comp. Sure you'll make it a bit easier by playing SMN instead of RDM. But then, if you can't pass a DPS check as RDM, the issue is not the job, it's either yourself or the team that is lacking damage (lacking damage not because they play "undertuned" jobs, but because they can't play it properly).

I can understand the feeling of playing a job that deal 500 flat DPS less than its counterpart, that you feel less impactful. But please, saying you're holding the team back because you're playing RDM instead of SMN is complete bullshit. "Oh we would have cleared 1 week earlier if we passed the 1% enrage, but we couldn't because you player a sh.t job" isn't an argument, because during progression a SMN won't have so much DPS than a RDM.

SMN perform so well over RDM because we're like 4 months after the raid tier release. Because a SMN needs to know all the timings in the fight to take advantage of their burst phase (and that's not the only one in this case). On the other hand, a RDM is much more adaptative and can still dish out good damage. The statistical DPS difference wasn't that high during the first month of Sigmascape savage, because RDMs were way faster at optimizing their damage than SMN.

I'll take my own experience as an example. I was playing with a team of about same skill level. DPS were BRD/MNK/SAM/RDM, and during progression, RDM was either 1st or 2nd DPS of the team, every single time, because MNK and SAM had to learn how to deal with positionals and uptime while doing mechanics, whereas RDM were much more free to do mechanics. We had no ninja nor dragoon to boost our damahe output, but we still had enough damage to pass all DPS checks (even with a BRD without piercing debuff, a SAM that brings nothing to the team much like BLM, and RDM that is supposed to be the least damaging job).

Once again, if your team fails at 1% enrage they can't blame you for playing RDM or BLM instead of SMN. Don't feel bad because you aren't playing the right job and holding your team back. Feel bad because you f.cked up your rotation or a mechanic. It's the same reasoning kids have on video games : "I lost because my character is bad" instead of "I lost because I played poorly".

[Neela]

while this is true and absolutely mirrors my point of view - "reality" seems to look different for the top 1%...

there are two major mindsets overall in this comm if we look on caster f.e its like

Mindset 1%:
RDM: lol...
SMN: op
BLM: mimimi

Conclusion: "I have to play smn to be cool - se get your shit together fuckers... I don't wanna be "forced" to play smn mimimi"


Mindset Casual/mid core
RDM: super cool for several non-endgame content, moderate dmg and fun with less afford/punishment, awesome for progress/first encounter
SMN: super flexible and high mobility -> fun in raiding and non endgame content, flashi pet, flexible
BLM: boom, boom, boom great for dng speed runs, item farm and fate-content

Conclusion: "I like caster in general - so much varity, I can always choose the best fit for my specific goal in any content."


yet the raiders still want balance based on endgame and still don't wanna except that SE politics goes for casual/new gamer > veteran endgame since HW. Everything went easier from leaf status, over skill structures, gear farming etc. SE said it more than once.... (we can discuss if its the right way in customer service to focus novice instead of veterans - but thats not the point here.) They also stated "cls which mechanics which needs a lil bit more afford to be effective deserve to be on top"

but this mind of se - is actually not what elites wanna hear so this "balance war threads" won't disappear in the future... actually its not worth even trying to discuss this matter... but well yeah humanity...