Inconsistencies with the astrologian questline and the Durendaire family

[Pinkie_Pie]

Greetings!

And apologies for getting to this issue so late! I will not bore you with the usual “OMG IT’S SO BUSY HERE I BARELY HAVE TIME TO EAT MY TACOS”

I think what everyone wants to know is, what kind of tacos were you eating? I'm super curious and hungry.

[Fernehalwes]

Thank you for the follow up (I knew there would be more...there's always more, especially when a bug is so interconnected with so many quests). This will probably be my last reply for a while (as it is now the week before Fan Fest), but I wanted to address the follow up questions before my life goes on lockdown once more!

It's entirely up to you, but I think that would still throw my estimate out by a few years if there isn't anything to establish it is an embellishment.

After writing the first reply last Friday, I actually went in and tweaked a few more lines, this “thirty summer” passage being one of them. While I do want to create the sense of Janne being a somewhat spoiled braggart by tossing out a flippant remark about how long he’s had his eyes to the stars, you are most likely correct that stating an actual number (especially so early) is bound to create some confusion. I changed the line to “Myself, I have been a student of the astromantic arts for more summers than I can count,” so that we could break out the “Why Not Both?” meme.

Quimperain seems to vary between being referred to as old or young

Quimperain is supposed to be old...but old as a soldier...not as a wizened coot. He does have several years on Janne, however. As for Leveva, Quimperain has taken a liking to the young astrologian, but more as a daughter rather than a lover. Janne (a notorious playboy, himself) is merely ribbing Quimperain by (continuously) suggesting that his growing fondness with Leveva is anything more than a fatherly love. Calling him an “old man” is also another form of jest, as Janne positively enjoys getting under Quimperain’s skin (though, Janne’s respect for Quimperain’s service and loyalty does grow through Janne’s arc).

I might also mention something about the lack of Elezen models falling squarely twixt Orlando Bloom and Louisoix. But I won’t.

there's a line "I am sorry, Father..." that I assume is for Jannequinard if he gets KOed.

You are correct...however, as I was about to change it, I stopped to think about Janne’s relationship with his actual father. As far as I know, there is no animosity there...so I would want to believe that faced with the approaching lights of the Great Beyond, even Janne would think of his father and how he disappointed him...rather than his uncle who didn’t really care that much about him until his own son flew the coop. So yeah, I’ll probably keep this one, if only to allow a glimpse a one of Janne’s (well-hidden) redeeming factors.

And some typos (of the 'not spell-checkable' kind)

Done and done. Thanks!

and I do have to ask about Janne's comment in 'Loved By the Sun'

Not really. This was another line meant to bring light to Janne’s playboy lifestyle. It does, however, add to the age confusion, so I’ve tweaked it a bit.

Mordyn's comment about "Carvallain's bride"?

Whoa! This is a mistranslation from way back during the 2.0 crunch (ah, the memories...). Thank you kindly for bringing it to my attention. The town NPC lines were one of the last things to be completed right before our data freeze, and while passed through QA for EN errors, there was not enough time to crosscheck for translation errors (as quests and whatnot were given higher priority with time running out).

(As is reflected in the other languages), the JP merely states that Carvallain is the Elezen out on the balcony who runs the business...while also serving as captain of the Kraken’s Arms.

So where did the “bride” part come from? As I did not do the original translation, I can only guess, but it appears that the JP uses the term 旦那 (danna) to refer to Carvallain. This word usually means “husband,” but can also simply mean “man” or “leader,” depending on the situation. My best guess is that an over-quick glance at the source text coupled with a sleep-deprived brain and a longing desire to go home resulted in...well, what’s there now. I’ll fix this with for 4.5, as well.

Thank you!!

And a terminology query - is it supposed to be "Count de [Surname]" or simply "Count [Surname]"? Or are both forms acceptable?

Technically, it is supposed to be

the Count Forename de Surname
Or
the Count de Surname

Count Forename is also accepted, but usually not in ultra-formal situations.

Count Surname would be technically incorrect, but if it was someone who wasn’t from Ishgard saying it, this could be chalked up to them not fully understanding the rules.

I will do a sweep and see if there are any to be found in the script and update them for 4.5. As for anything in a post by me here on the forums...you’ll have to forgive me!

I think what everyone wants to know is, what kind of tacos were you eating?

Japan does many things well. Sushi, ramen, flying rainbow cats, pineapples, apples, and/or pens. But there is one thing that I cannot forgive...and that is this country’s bordering-on-blasphemous mishandling of tacos. The “more ketchup than salsa” salsa. The “shredded processed dairy product” cheese. The “looks like lettuce, so it’s the same thing, right? RIGHT?” cabbage. The “we didn’t have any seasoned ground beef so how ‘bout this Canadian bacon?” cured pork product. The “couldn’t find any sour cream, what else is white and creamy?” mayonnaise topping.

Alright, alright. That may have been an extreme example. There are actually a few decent places over here to satisfy my craving for tacos...though most of the time I just make my own. A big tub of Costco-bought taco seasoning brought back from my last trip home has seen me through some super dark times.

Gah! Why am I waxing poetic about tacos!? Back to Fan Fest prep! BYE!

[Myvar]

Gah! Why am I waxing poetic about tacos!?

Why not? Tacos are awesome.

Also, you're awesome. Just saying.

[Iscah]

Thanks again for the replies! I hope your Fan Fest preparation is going smoothly.

I found one more line (that might be fine to leave as-is) - I remembered that some of the goldsmith leves reference Jannequinard (requesting various types of star globes), and Charting the Trends mentions it's being paid for with his "poor father's coin". Which probably still works, but depends whether you want it to refer to Janne's father or the count.

...so that we could break out the “Why Not Both?” meme.

I think you just have tacos on your mind.

But yeah, the "more summers than I can count" line works. (Plus for a second-time player is a wide-open target for "yes, because you haven't yet worked out how to count without doing it on your fingers"...)

That reminds me of another question about phrasing though - using X 'summers' or 'winters' rather than years. Any particular logic to which season is used, or just whichever works poetically in the situation?

Quimperain is supposed to be old...but old as a soldier...not as a wizened coot. He does have several years on Janne, however. As for Leveva, Quimperain has taken a liking to the young astrologian, but more as a daughter rather than a lover. Janne (a notorious playboy, himself) is merely ribbing Quimperain by (continuously) suggesting that his growing fondness with Leveva is anything more than a fatherly love. Calling him an “old man” is also another form of jest, as Janne positively enjoys getting under Quimperain’s skin (though, Janne’s respect for Quimperain’s service and loyalty does grow through Janne’s arc).

That's what I figured. Veteran knight but still young enough to qualify for the "Orlando Bloom not Louisoix" character model.

And for the most part I took his defence of Leveva as more of a chivalrous thing, but the remark about holding her hand was a bit harder to interpret that way.

I'm not sure that we ever see Janne directly ribbing him about Leveva though - at least the lines I'd found seem to be him talking to us directly, while Quimperain isn't present to object. (And referring to him as a "lad" - again while he's not present - seemed a little odd in any case, but even more so if Janne is actually younger than him.)

You are correct...however, as I was about to change it, I stopped to think about Janne’s relationship with his actual father. As far as I know, there is no animosity there...so I would want to believe that faced with the approaching lights of the Great Beyond, even Janne would think of his father and how he disappointed him...rather than his uncle who didn’t really care that much about him until his own son flew the coop. So yeah, I’ll probably keep this one, if only to allow a glimpse a one of Janne’s (well-hidden) redeeming factors.

That makes sense, and yes it seems better that way.

Whoa! This is a mistranslation from way back during the 2.0 crunch (ah, the memories...)

Aha, I thought it seemed strange! But of course it's one of those things you need to actually know the character in order to recognise it as strange, so it's harder to catch the error just by getting someone to proofread the text.

Plus at the point that players are reading it, they've probably just arrived in Limsa for the first time themselves and don't know the character either. (Though I do remember being puzzled that there wasn't an Elezen woman with Carvallain out on the balcony!)

I think I only picked up on it when I started an alt character and decided I'd talk to all of the people in town again.

Count Surname would be technically incorrect, but if it was someone who wasn’t from Ishgard saying it, this could be chalked up to them not fully understanding the rules.

I will do a sweep and see if there are any to be found in the script and update them for 4.5. As for anything in a post by me here on the forums...you’ll have to forgive me!

Thanks for the explanation! I can't think where I've seen the incorrect form used, just that it's come up somewhere (not necessarily the AST quests) and it was enough to make me uncertain which was the correct form when I've been writing about lore stuff. Now I'll know for future use.

[Iscah]

[Guillestet's line] will be tweaked as well, to make him almost as old as his father (FFXIV NPCs are surprisingly younger than you (and often I) think).

Coming back to this, because thinking it over... aside of stretching the limits of "almost" to say 32 is almost as old as (I-can't-work-it-to-be-less-than-)40ish*, it just seems odd for it to be pointed out as something remarkable in the first place.

None of the other young nobles are mentioned to be married or betrothed. We get no mention of romance from any characters besides Emmanellain's doomed attempts to flirt with Laniaitte.

And (unless it's a cultural thing) 32 doesn't seem remarkably old to be still unmarried and flirting with 'young maidens' - though depending just how young, I suppose.


* From the Elezen characters for we know the ages of both father and eldest child, the age gaps are 29 (Fortemps) (also Handeloup and his daughter), 26 (Haillenarte), 25 (Durendaire), 24 (Leveilleur). And will be similar gaps for any future children of the young-adult characters.

Of course there are going to be outliers, and in wrangling the statement to fit you could suppose that Guillestet is an early-maturing 18-year-old and his father was unusually young, but it's still a stretch to make his father's age anything below 40 - and that's when I know what it "needs to be" rather than making an educated guess based on the other information.

★ Jannequinard is not second/third son of House Durendaire, but second/third in line of succession (he is actually the son of the current count’s sibling = nephew)

"Sibling" seems an oddly vague way of phrasing it - and it seems to me that it would have an impact on his standing in the family whether it's his mother or father that's the count's sibling. (Given that only sons seem to be 'counted', eg. Francel being "fourth son" but actually fifth child.)

By that logic I'd guess EITHER he'd have to be son of the count's brother to be placed fairly high in the order of succession, OR the count only has sisters and that's why it's only Janne and his cousin(s), with no uncles or his father getting higher priority. Or maybe that's because his older male relatives have died fighting the war against the dragons.

Anyway, it seems like it should make a difference - would he get dismissed as a less important family member if his claim to the countship is "only" from his mother?

[Iscah]

So patch 4.5 is out and I can see the changes have been implemented for the AST script (looking on Garland Tools) and Mordyn (checked in-game)... but Guillestet is still referring to Jannequinard as "second son of the count" and his time in Sharlayan as "almost twenty" years ago, although it does have the change Fernehalwes mentioned earlier of saying that Janne is "almost as old" rather than "older" than his father.

I've just glanced through the scripts as I was planning to play through it with my other character.

I did notice that Leveva still says (in 'Sharlayan Ascending') that she never met her father, but the clarified timeline shows that she was born before he left for Ishgard. While having truly "met" him at that age is debatable, perhaps something like "I was too young to have any memories of him" would be better, while making the order of events clearer?


Oh, and funnily enough after querying the correct format for referring to the count, the updated script for 'Ewer Right' now has this:

FORLEMORT
And Jannequinard. Perhaps this will finally spell his downfall. He has only been allowed to continue this nonsense because he is harmless. Too caught up in the luxury of being in line to Count de Durendaire's title to actually put forth any real effort in furthering his, ahem, “cause.”

Needs a "the".

But I did find what had probably confused me about that in the first place - early in Heavensward, I think when we've just arrived at the manor for the first time, Alphinaud addresses Edmont as "Count Fortemps". So that fits in with the "foreigner not fully understanding the rules" thing that Fernehalwes mentioned.


Also the updated dialogue in 'East Meets West' made me laugh, after all the back-and-forth about where he is in the line of succession.

JANNEQUINARD
Why would I be jealous? I am of House Durendaire! Third in line to my uncle's title! Or was it second?

Also, not directly related to the AST quests, but I've been running early-Heavensward sidequests with my alt character, and a couple of things stood out.

The quest The Best-Laid Plans (presumably designed to direct players to the two guilds so they'll find the job quest starting-points) has Jannequinard seeming a bit out of character, explaining that the astrologians observe the stars for signs of Dravanian activity without so much as a hint of his usual enthusiasm for the Sharlayan sort, or an attempt to invite us to the guild... so is he just in "boring job mode" answering queries to the help desk, or is this dialogue not really meant for him? Maybe for Guillestet who says he's on reception duty? (Or just written by someone who didn't actually look at Janne's normal personality in the AST quest and is using him as a generic NPC.)

For comparison, when you get sent to Skysteel Manufactory for the second step of the quest, you speak to Fromelaut rather than Stephanivien... but on the other hand at both locations you're talking to "the guy at the desk".

And very tangentially on the subject of "incorrect information about family relationships", for the Haillenartes rather than the Durendaires, Looking to the Future seems to imply that Laniaitte is a ward of House Haillenarte rather than a daughter.




Also I have to say the changes seem very under-announced - all that I've seen is a single line in the Resolved Issues that "dialogue for certain NPCs was incorrect". Maybe it's an overall policy that script changes aren't announced in detail, but anyone who was in the middle of playing the AST quests might be rather confused right now.