Inconsistencies with the astrologian questline and the Durendaire family

[Iscah]

==================

EDIT NOVEMBER 2018: The timeline issues have been officially resolved! Please read Fernehalwes' posts #19 and #32 below.

==================

ORIGINAL POST:

I have a long and tangled set of plot details that I'm puzzling over, relating to:
- the backstory of the astrologian questline
- inconsistencies between game and lorebook information
- character ages
- House Durendaire family members

*SPOILERS incoming for astrologian quests and a certain 'missing' Ishgardian noble*

*also MSQ spoilers to the end of Heavensward/Dragonsong in the comments*

This is going to get very long, sorry. And I don't really have a particular endpoint to this train of thought, rather it's all the information I've got and I'm not sure what to make of it, but I really want to discuss it.

Also I haven't completed every quest in the game so I don't know if there's additional information hidden away in other job quests or something.


The TL;DR version:
- quest dialogue and lorebook give conflicting information on the timeline of past events in the AST questline
- the quest version seems to portray Jannequinard as older than his 'official' age as listed in the lorebook
- inconsistent references to the line of succession for the Durendaire countship
- I am so confused


References I'm using:
- Astrologian quest scripts via Garland Tools Database
- Encyclopedia Eorzea ("the lorebook"):
p.099 - profile for Carvallain
p.169 - Sharlayan history
p.157 - the Ishgardian High Houses; profile for Charlemend
p.243 - Astrologian job page; profiles for Leveva and Jannequinard

EDIT Nov 2018: As of patch 4.5, these quotes will be from an 'older' version of the script and some core information has changed in-game.


Known family members of House Durendaire:

Definite:
- Count Charlemend
- Carvallain, 'missing' firstborn son of the count, age given in-game and in book as 34
- Jannequinard, second-or-third son of the count, age given in EE profile as 32 (but more on that later)
All have a strong family resemblance of dark skin, pink hair and pale (usually luminous white) eyes - also shared by their distant ancestor as seen in the cutscene of Haldrath and his knights.

Unclear:
- Forlemort, "Jannequinard's uncle" but it's not clear whether they are related by blood or marriage. He doesn't seem to have a profile in the lorebook for further information.
- EDIT (May 2018): Portelaine at the Observatorium, referred to as "Lord Portelaine of House Durendaire" in the MSQ Lv44 quest 'Casing the Castrum' but otherwise not discussed. Doesn't resemble the definite family members overall, but does have the same hair colour. No lorebook profile. (Not counted in any of the theorising below this as I only recently picked up that reference, but now that I'm aware of him possibly being a family member I thought I should add him to the list.)

Possible misconception:
Digging back through the lore forum to see if there were any relevant discussions, I found this thread which linked to this page that may be the only attempt people have made at listing all known characters linked to the High Houses? In any case it has listed Drillemont of Whitebrim Front as the count's second son, but this is incorrect - the lorebook confirms that he is not a family member, just employed by them. (There are some other things on that list that I'm not sure are accurate, but haven't played the related quests myself. A topic for another time.)


Uncounted family members and the question of succession:

- (late edit) - at the start of the questline, student astrologian Guillestet tells you that Jannequinard is "second son to the Count de Durendaire".
- in 'Ewer Right', Forlemort refers to Jannequinard as the count's "thir─ah, second son".
- in 'Sharlayan Ascending', Jannequinard says he is "second in line to the countship" and that his family only cares about his older brother - in present tense, and with no mention of said brother being missing for the past twenty years.
- in Stormblood 'East Meets West', Janne is now describing himself as "third in line to [his] father's title".
- meanwhile in the Stormblood MSQ 'Lies, Damn Lies, and Pirates', when Tataru brings it up, she says that the loss of the count's son means he "must look elsewhere for a successor...and the good Lord Jannequinard is one step closer to being the next in line...".
- The lorebook (p.157) says that "the count's firstborn son disappeared twenty years ago, and since then the line of succession has remained unclear. Whether the count will remarry and attempt to produce another heir, or turn to a rather less than ideal candidate, is an oft-discussed topic amongst the nobility."
Overall the book seems to avoid stating family relationships directly - making no mention of Jannequinard in either the general information on House Durendaire or in Count Charlemend's profile, and no mention in Jannequinard's profile of where he fits in the family.

So information seems to vary from one source to the next, though Forlemort's slip of the tongue seems to be the most deliberate stating (to the player) of the family arrangement - three sons, but one isn't counted for some reason. You might assume that would be the missing Carvallain, and perhaps fair enough to not include him in the line of succession if they think he's dead, but it seems stranger to discount him from the family entirely. So what of the unseen second son? Is he also not a suitable candidate for the countship? (And that despite apparently being the family favourite for years, if Janne isn't actually supposed to be referring to Carvallain despite the timeline error?)

Also the lorebook phrasing makes it sound like Carvallain was the count's only son, if his remarrying and having another child is necessary to produce another heir, rather than turning to the two other adult sons he apparently already has?


Jannequinard's age:

The lorebook gives his age as 32, and if he is Carvallain's younger brother then this is forced to be the case (as Carvallain's age has been stated in-game), but it doesn't add up with any of the information given in the astrologian quests.
- when you first join the guild, Jannequinard says "[he has] been a student of the astromantic arts for more than thirty summers"
- the journal entry for the first quest describes him as "the aged astrologian"
- (late edit): student astrologian Guillestet (an adult) describes Jannequinard as being "older than [his] father"
- he spent a year in Sharlayan and considered his stay there "complete" when he left.
- he returned to Ishgard "nearly twenty" years ago - this is stated repeatedly throughout the storyline.

So this information can't add up with his given age, unless he was incredibly young when he started studying (and I doubt that is the case - also Alphinaud and Alisaie are remarkable for having been accepted to the Studium at age 11.)

Also Rufin, Janne's one friend in Sharlayan, is old enough to be married and about to have a child - for what it's worth, he's said to be classmates with Sevestre whose age is listed in the lorebook as 38. So I would assume they might all be roughly the same age.

Meanwhile, the lorebook gives a very different account, possibly trying to correct their timeline snarl without having checked back against the script - saying that Jannequinard was only in Sharlayan for a few months just prior to the evacuation, and was basically left behind.


Leveva's story:

A follow-on effect of the altered timeline is that Leveva's age is inconsistent as well, since it's tied to how long ago Rufin left Sharlayan. The lorebook gives her age as 16 when it's implied in-game to be 19 and then outright stated as "twenty summers" in Stormblood (AST 62), though it's possible that Kyokuho is guessing.

The lorebook also states that her father died a few years after she was born, but that (again) doesn't line up with the information in the quests. She says (in 'Sharlayan Ascending') that he left for Ishgard several months before she was born, and she never met him. Meanwhile in 'Conviction', Jannequinard says that he and Rufin worked together in Ishgard for several months before his death - so that and Leveva's birth must have been around the same time.


The Sharlayan evacuation:

One of the plot points in the astrologian quest is that the Sharlayans withdrew from their Eorzean colony because of a shift in policy and increasing unwillingness to share their knowledge with outsiders, and one of the catalysts for this shift was Rufin being (apparently) murdered by Eorzeans in response to his attempts to share Sharlayan knowledge with them. The lorebook doesn't mention any of this - the section on Sharlayan history (p.169) that they withdrew due to concerns about Garlemald following their invasion of Ala Mhigo.

(This doesn't really tie into any of my other points, but just another point where the AST questline gives different information to other sources.)


Carvallain and the astrologian questline:

The quest "Slings and Arrows" takes us (conveniently minus Jannequinard) to Limsa and an encounter with Carvallain, who has a few hints to drop about his past interesting things to say regarding astromancy:
"It has been many summers, but there was a time when I, too, dreamed of reading the stars. To think, if I had a teacher as lovely as her, my life might have taken a different direction... "
"I only wish I had the time to speak a little longer with the young astrologian. There was something so familiar about her..."

The second line suggests that he met Rufin at some point. (Janne mentions that Leveva reminded him of Rufin even before he knew they were related.) Only evident in hindsight as Rufin isn't mentioned until the second Lv50 quest.

It's also possible that Carvallain studied in Sharlayan too? Gives some potential context to Jannequinard's comment that he took up astromancy "to prove he could be as great as his older brother".

I have to wonder if the future AST quests will be where we ultimately get the resolution to Carvallain's plotline?


My weird alternate theory:
...if by "theory" I can mean the stuff I'd assumed prior to having all the information (lorebook + access to scripts) that actually made more sense than all this convolution.

So from the introductory quest and journal description, that established Jannequinard as being probably somewhere in his fifties (though I revised that down to early forties once it was clear he was fairly young in the 'twenty years ago' plot; any younger and the "aged" description wouldn't fit) despite not looking like it. Additional evidence at this point: a few lines in the script indicating that Quimperain is likewise older than his character model appears, and also that his uncle Forlemort seems an 'old man', logically one generation above 'middle-aged' Jannequinard.

At this point all references to other family members were pretty nebulous since I hadn't (knowingly) met any of them yet, so I think I'd assumed that the count must be older like Forlemort, and when Charlemend turned up I assumed he was Jannequinard's brother. (And then things got muddled because I decided I must have misremembered him being the son of the count, because evidently his brother is the count, and adjusted my grasp on the other facts to match the 'solid' information of his age-as-indicated-by-the-plot. I did want to go back and check the earlier scripts, but didn't know they were available so thought it was out of reach until I got an alt character up to Ishgard!)

At this point I'd finished Heavensward and finally caught on to Carvallain's secret... so he's Charlemend's son, and Jannequinard's nephew. This is my understanding of the character relationships as I work through the later Heavensward quests.

And that's all good and makes sense until my lorebook finally arrives and sends me into theory-meltdown.

I do have to wonder if this could be a salvageable resolution to the continuity snarl, if only because they've been so vague about referring to "the count" and never Charlemend by name? Suppose he's only just taken over the title from his father, and the main script error is that many references to "the count" are in fact to the previous count? (And perhaps an inconsistent translation of third son vs third in line?) Most of the other things fit together then. Jannequinard has one older brother and is/was third in line to his father's title (as he specifically phrases it in AST 63). No need for a "mystery brother" and it makes more sense that Janne is only a 'possibility' for the countship if he isn't directly in the line of succession. The astrologian quests aren't contradicting anything as far as I can think.

I'm not sure if it *really* works, but that's what's been in my head and it's hard to let go of that other understanding of the characters.


So, after all that...

I don't really have a conclusion to this, because I'm not sure what to make of it.

It's left me particularly uncertain how to think of Jannequinard, because the whole way through the quests he's been this "eccentric uncle" character and now, if the lorebook information is to be taken as correct, he's actually in the younger generation of characters - and I have to completely adjust my perception of him.

Usually I would just say the in-game information wins over external information, but synching up with Carvallain's subplot complicates things.

(Is the same person writing all these plot threads, or did someone forget to compare notes? Is it possible that the writers have these two different ideas of the character?)

I'd love to know what other people think of all this. Did you pick up on the inconsistencies? How are you interpreting it? Is there other relevant information that I've missed?

[ObsidianFire]

First of all, that is an excellent post. Thank you for writing out all the sources and conclusions you drew from them.

Jannequinard

When I first ran into him, I assumed he was in his 30s-40s. So finding out he was 32 wasn't that much of a stretch. The other thing I noticed about him was that it feels like he exaggerates a lot. And Leveva (and a lot of other people) behave as if he is rather slow on the uptake of ideas/why things in astromancy work the way they do/etc. (his skill at astromany has remained unchanged for 20 years for instance...). You also aren't the first person who he's tried to teach Sharlayan Astrology too. From the looks of things, none of his previous students have stuck with him and it's not until you meet Leveva that you actually learn anything really useful about it. While I wouldn't say he feels like he's lying on purpose, I'd certainly take everything he says with a grain of salt until someone more trustworthy proved him right.

As far as his schooling duration goes... he says there has been astrologians in Ishgard for thousands of years in "Stairway to the Heavens". So I could see him learning Ishgardian astrology first (only concerned with the dragon star) before ever going to the Sharlayan colony. And then exaggerating it so that it sounds like he's been studying astrology (both types) for practically his entire life. This could also explain where Carvallain might have learned it.


House Durendaire Succession

They might have a situation on their hands like House Fortemps does in regards to Haurchefaunt being Edmont's bastard son. So there could be a half-brother between Carvallain and Jannequinard that can't be in the line of succession.

All that said, that is a crazy timeline snarl. It'll be interesting to see what other information get revealed about it...

[Iscah]

The other thing I noticed about him was that it feels like he exaggerates a lot. [...] While I wouldn't say he feels like he's lying on purpose, I'd certainly take everything he says with a grain of salt until someone more trustworthy proved him right.

So.... overstating how long he's been studying could explain things, to a degree, but I don't think it could help with the fairly solid "almost twenty years" since he was in Sharlayan, as that's repeated by other characters - Leveva in particular, and the villager at Falcon's Nest who first mentions it...

...or not! I just double-checked that quest script ('Empty Nest') and unless it's another layer of continuity error, there's a chance that there might be *another* astrologian in play?!

He says: "I wouldn't let anyone see me at that gathering. I'd be branded a heretic and sent to Witchdrop. Or worse, they'd just slit my throat and toss me out to the beasts. Like as they did that other astrologian from the Old World." - and when asked how many years ago, "it must have been at least a score...mayhap more."

It stuck out to me from the start that that description doesn't seem to line up with Janne's account of Rufin's death (later in the same quest and again in 'Conviction') that he had been murdered at home in his room, and Janne found him as he was dying.

So...
- the details of the story just changed due to hearsay? (what I had previously assumed)
- Janne is being creative with the truth (possibly to himself as well) to remember a better version of his friend's death?
- or could it be a different person?

Not likely, but possible - the difference in both the description of his death and the slight difference of when it probably happened is enough to make me wonder.

They might have a situation on their hands like House Fortemps does in regards to Haurchefaunt being Edmont's bastard son. So there could be a half-brother between Carvallain and Jannequinard that can't be in the line of succession.

That was my initial take on Forlemort's "thir─ah, second son" line, particularly as I did that quest soon after getting introduced to the Fortemps family (where Emmanellain makes a similar slip of introducing himself to you as Edmont's second son, and then has to clarify). Though, as I said, I wasn't yet aware of who the other people might be - and also it stuck in mind as "third/second in line" - and then had the mistaken understanding of Charlemend being the known older brother. (I first picked up on Carvallain just by family resemblance, so briefly figured he might be their brother as well, but then I got up to the Stormblood MSQ that established his age as 34.)

In any case it still doesn't seem to add up with Janne saying that his family put all their expectations on his older brother, and nothing on him?

[SannaR]

it's the whole if ur not heir thing then the noble family dun care what the younger ones do as long as the family name doesn't get dirt on it. Like the postmoogle quest with the hair cutting dude is actually like the one in line after his brother that looks just like him for their minor house. It's why Janne has been able to have fun with the ladies til now. Also why post vault Emmanellain feels the weight of his position more and strives to be more like a certain half brother. Up until then he could get away with slacking in his responsibilities.

[RobinMalvin]

House Durendaire is the one in charge of The Observatorium, so it is no wonder that their children will be inducted in the art of (Ishgardian) astrology since birth. I think by what Jann said that he's been studying astrology for "more than thirty summers" means that he's been studying astrology (not Sharlayan astrology exclusively) for as long as he remembers.

As for the succession line, I'm more inclined to believe that Jann is actually the third son of the family and originally third in line of succession. When the oldest son (Carvellain) dissappeared, he became second in line. When he started to promote Sharlayan astrology in earnest, I assume House Durendaire was none too happy for it (his uncle was certainly pissed enough) that they rearranged the succession order so Jann now is considerd third in line of succession, at least maybe by House Durendaire. We haven't seen a lot of members of the Four High Houses so I'm not at all surprised if the second son of House Durendaire will remain unseen.

[Iscah]

We haven't seen a lot of members of the Four High Houses so I'm not at all surprised if the second son of House Durendaire will remain unseen.

it's the whole if ur not heir thing then the noble family dun care what the younger ones do as long as the family name doesn't get dirt on it.

That certainly seems to be the case from what Jannequinard says - but the question I'm asking isn't whether it's happening, but who the older brother is. Not necessarily a name/appearance (although that makes it easier to think of him as a specific character) but what his circumstances are.

By the astrologian questline, he's the person that the family have put all their hopes on, while (by his account) ignoring Janne and basically not caring if he's a suitable future count or not.

It can't (or at least shouldn't) be Carvallain, if he vanished when Janne was twelve years old - so unless the family has been pinning all their hopes on the idea of him reappearing someday, it would have to be a different brother who's been present for the past twenty years to be considered the future count while Janne is still the 'younger son' and not required to take on responsibilities.

And yet, by the MSQ/lorebook, there's no clear successor to the current count... so where is this older brother now? Have the writers forgotten that he should exist, because he's not a defined character?



Having thought further over it, I don't think the 'mystery brother' could be an illegitimate son, at least not by the astrologian version of events if he's the favoured one - not having checked references, but it seemed to be an unusual case that Haurchefant was as accepted by his family as he was, and he still wasn't officially a family member (unable to use the Fortemps surname) and had to earn his knighthood. And the Durendaires seem to be shown as more old-fashioned and formal versus the 'progressive' Fortemps.

(Also it just seems odd, from a story design point, if both the Fortemps and Durendaire families have three sons and the second one is illegitimate...)



In Emmanellain's case, I don't think he's being held up to more responsibility as a noble - though he is right now first in line to the countship after Artoirel took up the title, it's unlikely he'll ever actually become count, as he'll still be second to any future children Artoirel has. (And I don't know, hypothetically if Artoirel died, could Edmont take up the title again instead of requiring it to pass forward?)

Rather, the recent events have made him want to be a better person - he's badly shaken by Haurchefant's death, of course, but it's the failed peace conference (and the consequences of his actions there) that are the real catalyst for him making a true effort to improve.

Looking through the Dragonsong quest scripts now - his turning point is the quest 'Choices' where he resolves to make his own decisions instead of standing back and letting others make them for him. (Some of what he says is quite similar to Jannequinard in 'Sharlayan Ascending'.)

In any case I'm looking forward to where his story goes from here. I like "checking in" on previous characters to see if they're saying anything new, and I'm a bit disappointed that they haven't updated any of the Ishgardian characters' scripts from the end of Dragonsong until now - it's still the same dialogue they had just after Emmanellain had taken up command at Dragonhead. It seems like it would be a good opportunity to update it at least when we have cleared Stormblood, and have some degree of story progression there - an indication that he's been in the position for a while now, and how he's coping with it.

All this also makes me think - not for the first time - that I'd like to see a plot thread of him becoming good friends with Francel. The opportunity is there, with them both stationed in/near Dragonhead, and presumably in contact. Would be something of a contrast, as (noted in the lorebook) Francel is the one held to higher standards despite being the youngest son, because his older brothers are more interested in their own projects - but more simply, I just want to see poor Francel get an ongoing story instead of being left with nothing to do but grieve for Haurchefant and stand watch over a defence against the dragon horde that's no longer a threat. (Edit to clarify: Not that he shouldn't be grieving - I think it's really beautiful that there's been, so far, an arc from his first reaction to gradual acceptance as you talk to him at different points, and I want to see that continue.)

[SannaR]

I don't think the third child has been named. Also they might still be pinning after Carvallain since Tataru did the whole you're going to take us for this price or I'll let your fam know you're alive bit when we went to Kugane.

[Iscah]

I don't think the third child has been named. Also they might still be pinning after Carvallain since Tataru did the whole you're going to take us for this price or I'll let your fam know you're alive bit when we went to Kugane.

And what a spectacular piece of blackmail that was! I loved that scene. (I feel like Stormblood had a lot less enjoyable character-interaction scenes than Heavensward did, but that one stands out. Though perhaps partly because I'd been eagerly waiting to see when Carvallain's past would become a plot point...)

Still, it's back to the same issue at the core of the puzzle - when referenced by sources outside of the AST questline, it seems like Carvallain is/was basically considered the only option for future count, and thus his absence is a major problem for them. (On top of, I hope, genuinely caring about what has happened to him!)


Though, I'm starting to wonder a bit deeper on exactly what Tataru said there, and what can be gathered from it. "Without him, the Count de Durendaire must look elsewhere for a successor...and the good Lord Jannequinard is one step closer to being the next in line..."

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?
- still referring to him only as "Lord Jannequinard" and not mentioning his relationship to the others, leaving it open to potential miscommunication on where he actually fits in the family.
- confirms that there is *someone* in line between Carvallain and Jannequinard, if he's only "one step closer" now
- ...but why mention only Janne by name? (Other than the out-of-game answer of "because he's a known character", though it's fairly unusual to directly reference sidequest characters in the MSQ.) If the other brother is also a bad candidate for count, why not mention him too? If he's suitable, then the count shouldn't need to be looking for a new successor because his second-oldest son is right there - and has been for the last twenty years since the other one vanished.


---

Also wondering, I've seen that some posts in this forum do get official responses - what sort of timeframe would that normally take to happen? Should I be hopeful of getting an answer to this?

[Vidu]

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?

I am not sure how helpful this really is because even to me it sounds a bit like a "cheap" explantion in this context, but the reason I didnt stumble over that scene as much as you did is probably my german client because in german Tataru says the following:

"Armer Graf Durendaire! Er hat die Hoffnung nie aufgegeben, aber er hat natürlich keine Ahnung, dass sein Sohn noch lebt. Und dann geht es ja auch noch um die Nachfolge seines Hauses. Herr Jannequinard macht sich nun berechtigte Hoffnung, eines Tages das Haus zu übernehmen."

Which translates (more or less literal translation by me) as follows:
"Poor Count Durendaire! He never lost hope but of course he had no idea that is son is still alive! And then there is the question/matter of the succession of his house. Lord Jannequinard has now actual hopes to take over one day."

Its probably not the most colorful but hopefully accurate translation - and its a bit different than the english, I'd say.

"Looking elsewhere" becomes "the line of succession isnt a 100% clear at this point". It sounds a bit more like contemplating options and not so much having to find them first.
"One step closer" becomes "actual hopes" - to me the german text there always read like: They didnt really wanted Janne as Count and didnt expected him to have to take the position, so they sended him off to study (not an uncommon practise for second and third sons in rl noble families in the middle ages). They might still be looking for some "replacment" but Janne can now actually hope to be Count one day.

...not sure if this helps at all, but I found this thread really intresting to read and went back to check what the german dialouge said - and then noticed why that part never bothered me, so I wanted to share the possibility that maybe the english version is just a bit weird when it comes to phrasing!

[Brightamethyst]

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?

For the how, adoption and other relatives (cousins, nephews, etc) are possible options. We don't know exactly how succession works here.

As for the why, any number of reasons. We already know that Janne doesn't really want the title, and his family probably doesn't want to give it to him either (lack of interest, involvement in that Sharlayan nonsense, etc.) If that's also true of the presumed middle son then it's not hard to see why the count would start looking for alternatives.


P.S. Hey Jess