Issues with MCH since Stormblood Rework & Ideas on how to fix them

[Matthew_Fox]

Hello everyone,

I'm going to keep the post short and put a link to my written document on how to
improve Machinist all around.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Any more ideas, suggestions or criticism is welcome.

EDIT: 4.4 Update - Machinist is now a dead Job that no one wants to play anymore. The Raid Weapon has skillspeed on it and Bard has taken over everything with an insane CRIT best in slot that you can't beat. Don't play Machinist.

[Eir_Z]

This forum has had numerous discussions on what could or should be done to machinist.

I just want to point out that the changes you’re suggesting will only make it overpowered, but still dependent on ping due to the ability the job is built around. There’s a great discussion to be had about how machinist could be changed to require more skill (instead of a low ping) like dot and buff timers, turret management features, etc., but your suggestions don’t address those concerns.

[Matthew_Fox]

I just want to point out that the changes you’re suggesting will only make it overpowered, but still dependent on ping due to the ability the job is built around. There’s a great discussion to be had about how machinist could be changed to require more skill (instead of a low ping) like dot and buff timers, turret management features, etc., but your suggestions don’t address those concerns.

I also mentioned in the sheet that any balance, numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing is overpowered if you tune the numbers correctly.
The only real ping issue machinist has are the wildfires, mostly rapid fire during it. Nothing else. This is exactly what I touched on, so I don't see how it would not adress the concerns.

[Wintersandman]

I mained MCH in HW as I thoroughly enjoyed the class. The RNG of Slug and Clean is honestly what appealed me to it and of course big Wildfire crits. Yes it sucks to not get procs unless you force them for 45 seconds as you watch your DPS just tank. But they you get procs back to back and you are thrilled. It is like playing golf. You are going to have a bunch of horrible shots but then there is that one good shot that keeps you coming back. I digress.

So MCH in SB and the overheat mechanic is horrible. I know I am supposed to want to go into overheat for the 20% damage boost but everything in my body is saying overheat is bad. Why do I want Gauss Barrel to come off? No Gauss Barrel stay on...why cooldown are you so long....

This is exactly what occurs in my brain. I basically got MCH to 70 got Flamethrower and then my Gun has been collecting dust since. I literally have no desire to figure out how to manage overheat in my brain to accept removing Gauss Barrel with it's obnoxious cooldown. I love Heated shots and never want them to leave me. So for me Stormblood killed MCH. I would prefer the MCH Cast back then the current system.

I know I am probably the only one though.

[Kabooa]

Wildfire can be made less Ping dependent by changing to 'The Next X weaponskills". The set-up here isn't terribly different (Set up for Overheat, try to have as many Clean Shots in there as possible, fill with Split/Cooldown) and the result is the same if you tune it right. (Something like 40% instead of 25% as abilities and autos no longer count). 'The Next 5 weaponskills' also fits easily into an overheat, with Rapid Fire considered, further reducing the absolute need to have minimal latency.

Gauss Barrel really doesn't need to be a button anymore.

[Kitfox]

I feel like this will be another wasted effort but here goes anyway. I'm mainly going to focus on usability and playability. There's a lot of opinions people can have about the design or feel of the class, but whatever the design ends up being, the most important thing is that the experience isn't hindered by usability or accessibility problems.

Machinist is a fun and exciting class to play... when you have perfect connection and a party composition that supports your dps. I understand what the dev team is going for with the combination Rapid Fire, Overheat and Wildfire, the rush of a high speed burst rotation. However, I feel like this should be done more in the manner of RDM or SMN burst, without excessive ogcd weaving or latency depended timers.

In my opinion, the main usability problems causing the class to be unpopular can be summarized as follows:

1. It's difficult to use ogcd abilities in conjunction with Rapid Fire
2. Wildfire is too short and requires too many abilities to be used in it
3. Overheat is too short and requires too many abilities to be used in it
4. Almost Every ability can, and thus must, be used for Wildfire making all the above problems compound each other
5. Almost every single ability affects Wildfire burst, thus any mistake has a significant impact on dps
6. Flamethrower is an awkward ability
7. Machinist is too depended on party composition to maximize damage

The main culprit behind latency problems is Rapid Fire in combination with ogcd weaving. Rapid Fire lowers gcd to the floor value of 1.5s similar to RDMs' melee combo. This is fine on its own, but it becomes problematic when ogcd weaving is required during it. With animation locks being roughly 0.70-0.75s in practical gameplay with good latency that leaves almost zero room for lag. Double weaving ogcds during slow gcd is already too much for many players but this is far worse. Since this is a compound problem with the combination of Rapid Fire, Overheat and Wildfire, any of the following solutions would help alleviate the issues.

1. Reduce the required ogcd weaving during Rapid Fire
This would require combining abilities, such as reloads, direct damage abilities or wildfire+overheat, into a single ability or changing them to have longer lasting effects so that they can be applied outside of burst, like Hypercharge. Alternatively, a SMN-like approach could be used, locking some of the abilities during Overheat so that they can't be used. The downside is that the rotation might become more bland or feel boring with less abilities used.

2. Significantly reduce animation locks
I feel that this would be insufficient for most players, but it would retain the current structure and feeling the gameplay has. This would help alleviate issues with ability weaving but only if it was possible to implement fluidity similar to NIN mudras.

3. Change how Rapid Fire works
If Rapid Fire gave a damage boost through other means besides reducing gcd timer, it would allow for double weaving ogcds more easily. This would no doubt have a big impact on gamefeel, and the excitement of a fast burst rotation might be lessened.

4. Make Wildfire and Overheat longer so that ogcds are not required during Rapid Fire
This would give more ogcd space between gcds simply by extending the buff period. This would introduce an old problem with Wildfire, the difficulty of delivering the payload damage before phase changes or interruptions. It would require a mechanic similar to Deathflare or Eartly Star to explode the collected damage before the Wildfire timer is up naturally, a manual detonator.

5. Make Overheat and/or Wildfire work based on gcd count instead of timer
As suggested in the OP, this would alleviate issues with the tight timers and large damage loss due to latency, although the problems with ogcd weaving would remain.

6. Make Overheat timer not tick down before Flamethrower is interrupted.
This would get rid of the human error with the timing and actually make the Overheat window comparable to other buff windows. It would also allow Flamethrower to actually be used for AoE damage instead of a simple heat tool.

Flamethrower is an awkward ability overall. It is obviously meant as an overheating tool, yet must be used nearly in melee range, yet Machinist doesn't have abilities for easily moving in and out of range like RDM. It's also a fairly powerful AoE attack, yet the heat gain makes no sense for AoE rotation and makes it difficult to make use of the Overheat buff. This would work better as an instant AoE attack with good potency that would also Overheat instantly regardless of previous heat. MCHs' AoE power feels lacking as it is. Overheat could also be baked into Wildfire, similarly how Berserk and Inner Release were combined, and Flamethrower could be given a more specific purpose.

Another awkward ability is Gauss Barrel. Not only is it ugly visually, hardly fitting for any gun model in the game, it's a forced ogcd double weave with Barrel Stabilizer. There's no reason to not have it always activated besides forcing another pointless ogcd weave in the aftermath of an already convoluted burst phase. Manual reactivation after the lockout period should not be needed.

A word needs to be said about party compositions as well, specifically DRG and Disembowel. This is seen as a requirement for any Ranged dps and makes playing without one very displeasing if one wants to compete or compare performance with other players. DRGs don't often recognize this as a gain for them, but every ranged will see the lack of DRG as a detriment for them. It's not fun and forcing this synergy is bad for party composition flexibility. Honestly, all attack type debuffs should be removed or rebalanced as universal damage boosts.

There's a lot more that could be said about leveling, aesthetics, totally new abilities or reworks, but most of those end up being very opinionated or up to personal preference. However, usability problems can be objectively analyzed and fixed for any design goal. Given the small size of the MCH community and the unpopularity, it feels very hard to have the real problems pushed out there, not to mention in the midst of all the opinions of what the class should or shouldn't be. I do hope these thoughts reach the dev team because these problems have existed for a long time now.

[Eir_Z]

So, let’s get rid of flamethrower and remove the buff from overheat so that it’s something you have to stay away from. Instead of a 10s window you get zero shots before a short reset period (2 or 3 GCDs) after which you’re reapplying gauss barrel. The level 70 ability is a trait that guarantees criticals on all shots over 80 heat.

I like the idea of wildfire being a GCD counter, but that would also ignore oGCDs, so maybe ricochet and gauss round become turret actions?

[Seraphor]

I'm only level 60, and somewhat unsure about utilizing overheat, but the wildfire mechanic seems alright to me.

"1. It's difficult to use ogcd abilities in conjunction with Rapid Fire
2. Wildfire is too short and requires too many abilities to be used in it"

I don't find these to be true at all.
I usually Hot Shot, Reload, 1-2-1, Hypercharge, then collect myself for a second or two before, as quick as possible: Wildfire>Rapid Fire>3>Quick Reload>2>Reassemble>3>Gauss Round>Ricochet, then Wildfire triggers. (where 1,2,3 are your main combo)
That's the full rotation, full use of Rapid Fire, plus the two oGCD's, all within the Wildfire window.
Oh and my connection is shockingly bad, I don't know what my ping is but I know it's not good.

Now while working in Overheating into that seems daunting, surely it doesn't actually change it? It just means you have to try to get that rotation into your Overheat window as close as possible, right?
So building up to 90/95 before (with Flamethrower?) then working in another shot after the 1-2-1 or Hypercharge, triggering Overheat as you plow into Wildfire>Rapid Fire...


The only thing I don't like, is how reliant you are on Wildfire.
Personally I'd like to see weaponskill potencies buffed in general, then reduce the Wildfire mechanic to 20% or even 15% of your damage, instead of 25%, or something like that. So that you're not penalised quite so badly if it doesn't all match up, but you still get your peak DPS if you do get it right.
It would also stop MCH feeling like a peashooter in any pre-38 content.

[Wintersandman]

I'm only level 60.

At level 60 oGCD's and Rapid Fire had perfect synergy during the Wildfire Window. Especially in HW you could fit in every oGCD and be rotating Clean > Slug > Split > Clean > Slug > Clean. So you would have the max damage potential during the WF window with the way the MCH proc system works. Now we are trying to fit in more oGCD's into the same time frame while also working within the overheat window. You also want to be saving reload for before Wildfire so you have the boosted shots during the window (75 potency lost during WF/overheat window). Now we also had 5 shots plus quick reload for 6 in HW so you could guarantee the rotation above. Now we have 4 guaranteed procs during WF.

I get the frustration with WF but at the same time thats what I loved about the HW MCH. 15k crits were just amazing (at the time). MCH basically blows it's load then prays for procs.

[Kitfox]

"1. It's difficult to use ogcd abilities in conjunction with Rapid Fire
2. Wildfire is too short and requires too many abilities to be used in it"

I don't find these to be true at all.

No offense, but you're lvl60 and obviously have no experience with endgame optimization. Your rotation also highlights the exact problem with Rapid Fire: with Rapid Fire, you should be able to fit 5 GCDs into Wildfire. You're fitting three. You're also clipping massively by using Gauss Round + Ricochet while still having 1.5s gcd from Rapid Fire, which makes it seem like you don't even perceive the problem we're trying to bring forth. I really do mean it when I say to not take offense because you obviously don't know any better, but it's just incredibly frustrating to be presenting and arguing solutions for real problems, only to be demerited by people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

For the record, I'm the author of this Machinist guide and this gear + rotation calculator. Fox on the other hand is one of the top ranking Machinists in endgame. I'd like to think we know what we're talking about.