Thread: Revelations from Patch 4.2

Originally Posted by Theodric

Mm. It ranges from friendly rivalries to bitter feuds and outright hostility, yet many countries in the present day real world loathe each other for events that happened in the past. It's largely why 'everyone can come together as equals' is such a flawed, idealistic dream...and I doubt it is any different in Hydaelyn, either. Especially not when slaughter is the preferred route for dealing with anyone who does not adhere to any given major faction's ideals.

I don't buy into the idea that the 'cycle is ended' either. Ishgard didn't undergo true reform, it simply found a new enemy to distract the masses with: Garlemald. It didn't address the divide between the rich and poor even with the revelation that the nobles weren't actually nobles at all. Anyone who wanted vengeance for the deaths of their loved ones were either locked up or killed. (Ironic, given that the protagonists often go on about seeking vengeance themselves whenever anything does not go their way, but I digress...)

Like how Garlemald "ended the cycle" of their oppresion in Ilsabard only to then turn their aggressive expansion onto Orthard and Eorzea, to which also started prior to their knowledge of primals? Hey, atleast Ishgard and Ul'dah have some common talking points to use when talking to each other!

As an aside with Zenos and for a possibly slightly different discussion, I have come to firmly believe that he is not being possessed by Elidibus (though there is a good chance of Asician foul play still being present.) I have also drifted towards being certain that Elidibus is infact possessing Regula...and the more further out theory that it is in fact like when Lahabrea possessed Thancred and its while Regula is in fact still alive. Even possibly that Regula had his life unintentially saved by being possessed. 5.0 will see us having to choose to either let Elidibus get away because we have means to defeat him but not permantly kill him, or we can take him out for a short time but be short a way to actually kill him once we have white auracite. But when we choose to go through with it we end up saving Regula, which leads to the WoL starting a good road to peace with Varis

Even in the case that this just saves Regula so he can die in peace that would probably be considered better by Varis then him being possessed so it could still have the same "possible peace in sight" ending.

Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't buy into the idea that the 'cycle is ended' either. Ishgard didn't undergo true reform, it simply found a new enemy to distract the masses with: Garlemald. It didn't address the divide between the rich and poor even with the revelation that the nobles weren't actually nobles at all. Anyone who wanted vengeance for the deaths of their loved ones were either locked up or killed. (Ironic, given that the protagonists often go on about seeking vengeance themselves whenever anything does not go their way, but I digress...)

I hate to nitpick, but it's hard to argue Ishgard didn't undergo any true reform. They switched their entire government from a Theocracy to a Parliamentary Democracy, with the poor now playing a major role in it (running the House of Commons). Giving the Common Man a proper voice in government is an enormous step forward for them, even if full equality hasn't been reached yet. They ended an 1000 year-old war with Dragonkind, and are on the slow route to peace. They didn't "lock away anyone who wanted vengeance", they locked away the perpetrators of a violent attack on a peaceful ceremony. I actually really liked how they acknowledged that the hatred isn't just going to go away overnight, and it's going to take a long time before both sides of the conflict truly heal from the damage. However, it's pretty clear that progress has been made.

On the "replaced Dravania with Garlemald" point, I think there is a major misunderstanding here. Ishgard isn't in a fanatical crusade against Garlemald. They allied with the rest of Eorzea in taking Ala Mihgo back, but they don't seem to be particularly interested in Garlemald at all. In fact, during the Ala Mihgo dungeon, they claim to be there to support the Warrior of Light, not to "destroy Garlemald". I don't know of any Ishgard NPCs particularly hating on Garlemald like they did against the dragons, but I may have missed something. The only Ishgardian character who really relates to Garlemald is Lucia, and even then she doesn't seem to desire the country's destruction. Aymeric's acceptance of her indicates that Ishgard probably doesn't hold much ill will toward Garlemald, at least not fanatically so.

Honestly, this extends to the rest of Eorzea, in my opinion. Overall, the Eorzeans don't seem to harbor some intense hatred of Garlemald, nor its citizens. After the battle of Carteneau Flats, Gridanian healers assisted the wounded, regardless of their allegiance. A former Garlean soldier even became one of Kan-E-Senna's most trusted soldiers. During the Baut side quests, the Alliance Soldier seem confused when Baut is convinced he'd be executed. I actually really enjoyed that plotline. Governments will often spread false information about how their enemies treat prisoners of War, and I liked seeing that in this game. The Alliance leaders clearly put their trust in Cid, despite his former allegiances, and even manage to trust Nero to a degree. Most of the NPCs don't seem to be calling for the "Death of Garlemald" either. I honestly don't think Eorzea is interested in invading or destroying Garlemald. Thus far, they've seemed more interested in protecting their own territory. The only Eorzean nation with a burning hatred for Garlemald seems to Ala Mihgo, which is a fair bit more reasonable, in my opinion. Many of their citizens suffered under Garlean rule, and are far from satisfied yet. To be fair, the more radical, hateful citizens aren't shown positively. You aren't meant to sympathize with the men and women who brutally murder Fordola's father, or attempt to kill her while she's still imprisoned. That kind of fanatical hatred is consistently shown as evil and wrong, regardless of the source or the target.

I totally understand the frustration with Garlemald's current role in the story. Thus far, they've been firmly placed in the villain role, with little wiggle room. I think we'll need to wait until we deal with their Citizenry, rather than their Military, to see their better sides. I could see the Ivalice storyline, which features a number of Garlean citizens in positive roles, being a place to explore that more in the near future. I also firmly believe the introduction of the Populares and the Optimates offers hints as to how we'll deal with Garlemald in the future.

Originally Posted by Lauront

Whether it was maintained or not through one person, they still did it without any aid from Hydaelyn. The fact of the matter is, their aetherochemical technology is useful, reliable and potent whether or not one dabbles in the Void, is religious etc.

Wait, are we sure the Allagans did everything they did without any aid from Hydaelyn? I thought it was established that Warriors of Light had always existed throughout history, it's just that for some reason, current historians have been unable to find any record of them.

Originally Posted by Dualblade

As an aside with Zenos and for a possibly slightly different discussion, I have come to firmly believe that he is not being possessed by Elidibus (though there is a good chance of Asician foul play still being present.) I have also drifted towards being certain that Elidibus is infact possessing Regula...and the more further out theory that it is in fact like when Lahabrea possessed Thancred and its while Regula is in fact still alive. Even possibly that Regula had his life unintentially saved by being possessed. 5.0 will see us having to choose to either let Elidibus get away because we have means to defeat him but not permantly kill him, or we can take him out for a short time but be short a way to actually kill him once we have white auracite. But when we choose to go through with it we end up saving Regula, which leads to the WoL starting a good road to peace with Varis

Even in the case that this just saves Regula so he can die in peace that would probably be considered better by Varis then him being possessed so it could still have the same "possible peace in sight" ending.

I'm going to go with a different theory in regards to who I think Elidibus is possessing. I am not 100% sure that it's Regula, as his plotline seemed to have been wrapped up rather nicely (ALTHOUGH there was that whole thing when you spoke to the VIth Legion soldiers before fighting Zurvan, about the Legion making sure his body would be shipped back to Garlemald). If it was Regula, the devs would have to make the Warring Triad series mandatory to progress in the MSQ.

What would really have far-reaching implications is if Elidibus was actually possessing the late Emperor Solus. In a way, that would be tantamount to extreme blackmail. Nothing like sending Garlemald into complete chaos by just stepping outside and removing the mask if Varis doesn't play along.

Originally Posted by Theodric

so agreeing to disagree seems to be the best option

I'm going to be stubborn on this, as I still want my answer, as my question is one of how the logic in your conclusion flows.

How does the justification that they were persecuted and pushed around still work when it's highly likely that the majority of pure-blooded Garleans that are currently alive in Hydaelyn did not experience that persecution?

I'm not asking if it's right or wrong that they feel justified based on being persecuted, I'm asking how could they actually feel persecuted when most never experienced it (unless the majority of the Garlean Pure-blood population is 60 or older, which just isn't likely)?

Far more likely is that those that were persecuted taught their children to believe a certain way about others, and it's that belief which mostly holds sway, rather than pushing back against those that have actively been knocking them down/punching them around.

Originally Posted by Berethos

I'm going to be stubborn on this, as I still want my answer, as my question is one of how the logic in your conclusion flows.

How does the justification that they were persecuted and pushed around still work when it's highly likely that the majority of pure-blooded Garleans that are currently alive in Hydaelyn did not experience that persecution?

Interestingly enough, this very question might be addressed---hopefully, at least---in the inevitable Illsabard expansion.

The Empire likely ramps up the idea of the oppressed, magic-less pureblood rising up to become masters to those that once played masters and tormentors to them. The Republic overtook most of Illsabard throughout the centuries, and not just through military force. The idea of "the other" coming to get at them and destroy them once and for all is likely a very powerful nationalistic tool.

Republic turns to Empire, and they begin expanding into other territories. Lands that had nothing to do with Garlemald's oppression. Solus was a brilliant, charismatic man, and was likely able to rally his nation into a collective frenzy of "securing Garlemald's new borders", to create more bulwarks so that their core territory can never be threatened again.

Then things begin slowing down. Every single attempt to conquer Eorzea fails. Doma and Ala Mhigo fall. Dalmasca's rebellion is suppressed only by systematic carpet bombing and hitherto unseen crackdowns of monstrous force (if the concept art is anything to go by, anyway). Four legions are either completely destroyed or so severely depleted that they lack actual offensive capability.

A nation that's been on a perpetual war footing for fifty years is going to inevitably slow down, and cracks are going to start showing. They can't rely on the shock and awe of their amazing new airships and warmachina anymore, because their enemies are adapting, re-organizing, and forming coaltions against them.

So now you have Garleans in the imperial capital, those who are privy of what's going on outside their borders, wondering if they might be in trouble. Surely they have ten more entire legions to field, but a lot of that power must be spent in regions that opposed Imperial occupation. Suddenly they realize that they've made a lot of enemies.

For a nation that tried protecting itself through conquest and making sure no one gets the chance to strike back at them again, their government is doing a fantastic job antagonizing a good chunk of the world. While the Eorzean Alliance is nowhere near capable enough to invade Illsabard, Garleans don't know that for sure, and the idea of vengeful hordes of foreigners coming to yet again oppress them might be a real fear for some of them.

Suddenly, the nationalistic idea of "breaking our racial chains" seems a little weird. This generation of Garleans has never known oppression, only a golden age of technology and empire-building. But that was all under a different Emperor. This new one is brutally authoritarian at best. Even for purebloods. Shut your mouth, don't criticize the government, and do your collective duty.

It would very much make sense for a faction like the Populares to bring up these exact questions. Garlemald had a collective axe to grind against those who oppressed it, once upon a time. But how does that hold up now? What does the future hold for them? These are probably only a couple of things pertaining to why so many Garleans feel like "a shadow has fell over them", according to the Prima Vista crew anyway.

Garlemald is still mighty, still a force to be reckoned with. But a lot of its people fear for its future, and rightfully so.

If anyone is at all familiar with the Napoleonic Wars/French Revolutionary era, a LOT of paralells can be drawn between those two. But this post is already long enough so I probably shouldn't delve into that either :P