[spoiler] empire might vs eorzea might

[Theodric]

The issue, I find, is that a lot of attention is paid to showing off the prowess of the protagonists yet not enough is done to show off the power of the antagonists. This was very evident throughout much of Stormblood. Magnai was shown to cut down a small airship with minimal effort yet realistically his people have little experience when it comes to fighting Garlemald's forces. Hien then later does the same thing. Estinien is also fired upon by countless soldiers yet they all miss and that serves to allow Estinien to swoop in, destroy a large cannon and then escape completely unscathed. I also believe that the soldiers in question were wearing the armour donned by Garlean Purebloods, rather than the armour used by conscripts. There's a spot to accentuate the presence of a third eye, after all.

Now consider for a moment what the third eye's purpose is:

The third eye is believed to considerably improve the race’s capacity for spatial recognition, giving them an advantage over other races when it comes to navigating aircraft or firing weapons.

The losses in Stormblood were of minimal consequence as well.

The only 'major' deaths recently have been Papalymo, Meffrid and Conrad.

All three appear to have been killed off to artificially elevate Lyse into a leadership position. Gosetsu 'died' though came back not long afterwards. Zenos playing his 'games' is largely irrelevant to the actions of the rest of his troops as they themselves were fighting desperately for their lives - and realistically part of that drive would be to overcome the threats stacked against them so they can see their friends and loved ones again. It never sits well with me as a military man when a story reduces enemy combatants to generic fodder to be cut through like butter even when they are supposed to be a fearsome, complicated foe.

As much as I hate to say it, for all the flaws WoW's storytelling may have as a setting it is not afraid to show off the strengths of its antagonists and have them severely injure or even kill the occasional major protagonist. In FFXIV, however, the stakes often do not feel as high as they should. Zenos openly denounced Garlemald yet the Warrior of Light and other protagonists act like he did not. It feels very contrived.

Now, to highlight something of note in a recent game that I played, Xenoblades Chronicles 2, I'll be vague to avoid spoilers, though tag it just to be safe:

There is a prominent antagonistic faction in the game. They are repeatedly shown to care deeply for one another, all working towards a similar goal. They are also allowed to be successful at various points in the game and genuinely feel like a meaningful threat as a result.

I want to see more of that in FFXIV. As it stands, Garlemald does not appear to be launching a counterattack. I'm fine with that, but it will be very silly if it does later launch one as it will have given both Gyr Abania and Yanxia time to recover and receive support...which will inevitably lead to them overcoming whatever is thrown at them fairly easily judging by the current and past trends.

[Balipu]

Long story short we need some setbacks. Some Garlean attack that hurts a lot. Of course we cannot loose access to playable territory cause the game does not work that way, but maybe fill a few more bodybags.

[Cilia]

This wasn't the result of my "sly quips." You don't get to blame me for this one.

The issue, I find, is that a lot of attention is paid to showing off the prowess of the protagonists yet not enough is done to show off the power of the antagonists. This was very evident throughout much of Stormblood. Magnai was shown to cut down a small airship with minimal effort yet realistically his people have little experience when it comes to fighting Garlemald's forces. Hien then later does the same thing. Estinien is also fired upon by countless soldiers yet they all miss and that serves to allow Estinien to swoop in, destroy a large cannon and then escape completely unscathed.

Zenos defeated the Warrior of Light twice and swatted aside anyone else who tried.
Fordola killed Meffrid, severely injured Alisae, and could have easily defeated the Warrior of Light (and just about anyone else, really) using Ultra Instinct the Resonant Echo if they hadn't come prepared.
Journal entries confirm that the Alliance took heavy losses during Rhalgr's Beacon.
Death toll from the battle for Doma is unknown and unquantified.

Just because major named characters aren't chumped by the antagonistic forces doesn't mean they're not "powerful." It means the major named characters are more important to the narrative and thus less likely to be killed off. Lots of rank and file on both sides were killed at, say, Specula Imperatoris, but the only one really important to the story's narrative was Conrad (and to an extent Fordola's comrades).

I'd pick apart the individual examples, but all of the major named characters are highly trained and seasoned warriors with years of combat experience. Consider this: that experience lets them adapt to Imperial tactics and warmachina quickly. (Does it make sense from a realistic perspective? No. But it's a fantasy world, so it doesn't have to follow realism.)

Zenos playing his 'games' is largely irrelevant to the actions of the rest of his troops as they themselves were fighting desperately for their lives - and realistically part of that drive would be to overcome the threats stacked against them so they can see their friends and loved ones again. It never sits well with me as a military man when a story reduces enemy combatants to generic fodder to be cut through like butter even when they are supposed to be a fearsome, complicated foe.

Oh hey, the victim narrative! Again!
... do you suppose the Eorzeans set out just to kill Imperials? To deprive their families from seeing them again? No, they just wanted Ala Mhigan independence, and negotiations with the Empire typically break down to (or start at) "surrender or die." Empire doesn't even see others as equals; why would they open a table to negotiation? And how can you negotiate with those who do not treat you as equals?
-> Implying the Eorzean militaries and characters are incapable of being fearsome, complicated foes - enough to overcome the Empire, even though they took (as confirmed in Journal entries) heavy casualties in so doing.

Zenos openly denounced Garlemald yet the Warrior of Light and other protagonists act like he did not. It feels very contrived.

What does that have to do with anything? Zenos stood in the way of Ala Mhigan independence. That's what matters, not whether he was loyal to Garlemald or not, and he was the product of Imperial society...

As it stands, Garlemald does not appear to be launching a counterattack. I'm fine with that, but it will be very silly if it does later launch one as it will have given both Gyr Abania and Yanxia time to recover and receive support...which will inevitably lead to them overcoming whatever is thrown at them fairly easily judging by the current and past trends.

My present hope is that someone in the Garlean Consulate extends a hand to the Domans, opening the way for a lasting peace, but anyone doing so would have to be under the radar of the official Imperial government.

Doubt it'll happen, though. The Imperials there are too proud to even use the public baths (re: be seen nude, and thus as equal, with their enemies from other countries), so they have bath water delivered to the Consulate.

... whatever happens, happens. Just because named characters aren't killed left, right, and center in every skirmish with Imperials, and just because it's possible to overcome the Empire, doesn't mean it's not powerful. That just means it has exploitable flaws.

[VargasVermillion]

I generally take issue with this side of the plot as well, It feels like the antagonists lose simply because they are the bad guys and are destined to lose in the end, not because of a well thought out scenario the characters earned through struggle. The WoL is already a demigod who's going to win no matter what because it's an mmo and we can't present the same situations you'd normally see in a jrpg however the struggle needs to be shown elsewhere and most of the time (when it comes to battle against conventional foes at least) the side characters are basically as powerful save for primal slaying.
Estinian is so good he can literally not move and bullets will miss and the au ra tribes can destroy airships despite never encountering them and can just cut through cermet plating. (Not even the WoL could do that otherwise why were we ever given bombs to blow stuff up.)

[silentwindfr]

about the fleet that can get a setback, it will have been nice if a few month ago the flagship wasn't invading the airspace where the dragon live generally and didn't get attacked.
plus it different to send the whole fleet that a few battleship for bombard the enemy in them controlled area...
the whole stormblood story in terms of war perspective is quite strange...

i will retake what was said about doma rebellion, it was lead by the same people that was crushed a bit of time ago, with the add of the WoL and xanthia tribes, when you invade a place and repress a rebellion, is normal to increase the military presence for keep the area under control, in case of people trying one more time to rebel. sadly, we don't see this in doma... the military presence is quite low.

same you talk about the crashed airship in gyr abania, they are fighter, no escorter or battleship remain, the same ship i did shown and that is presented in the video of the hymn... we don't see them... worst, i have seen nothing that can destroy one, no artillery and we can't expect a human to destroy it like this, ok magic and all.... but if that was the case, why the alliance had needed exterior help each time for push back the empire.

first time was the dragon and midgarsorm that did pop out because the fleet did pass over them terrirotory.
second time was bahamut, because the battle cartaneau was a loosing ground, we was pushed back... and it was one legion. here we are winning soo easily, the empire don't feel threatning, they don't feel powerfull.... when they are powerfull, stormblood story have make the empire a simple threat.... only zeno is really a threat, what the power of the empire, is not the individual, but them army... what we have not seen in this one...

no one in is right mind, as emperor, will have let the situation take this turn without send reinforcement or ask zeno to be serious...we was spared far too many time... but it did feel wrong, we was spared, not because we was able to repell the army, but because zeno was playing with us, never we did feel the threat of the army, it like we can simply destroy them at will, but even if we are strong, we are one person that can be overpowered by the number, what the empire have.

and like said, never the empire did use them heavy air army, never in the whole stormblood... we did seen fighter but nothing more. no battleship, no transport, no escorter, nothing. because soo far, the alliance have no way to deal with them, then it's impossible for them to use them into the story, that a fact, what can be used for destroy a battleship or an escorter that can shoot from far in the sky? ishgard cannon? they have mostly a defensive role, not an offensive one and have a limited range.

all in all, i feel the army of the empire look.... ridiculous in comparaison of the simple fact they did conquer most of the world in one generation. means they have a very powerfull army and war machine, worst, the alliance too was severly hit by bahamut attack and did loose a looot of people that can't be replaced that easily. they need to step up the really feeling of war in the game, because soo far the army might don't make sense.

ps: and don't come with gameplay and such, it was possible to create a true feeling of war with front and position that can be pushed by the action of the army and the wol... here they simply did loose the province with skirmish.

[Theodric]

The Eorzean Alliance is very similar to World of Warcraft's Horde, unfortunately. Despite it not making much sense to undergo numerous conflicts in a short period of time they both somehow manage to pump out enough troops and resources to go head to head with whatever new threat happens to pop up. I'm very pleased to see that there are others who share concerns regarding the way in which antagonists are handled in this game - and it isn't just Garlemald, either. Nidhogg came back from the dead yet he accomplished very little of actual note.

Sure, we get some pretty epic battles out of the various antagonists that crop up...but very few of them seem to leave a lasting impact on the game world. Ilberd was a great exception to this for various reasons and his impact on the protagonists can be seen to this very day. It could be as simple as a major character receiving a visible scar that does not heal fully.

[ObsidianFire]

Honestly, a lot of it is the game engine. There's only so many moving models that can be shown on a screen at one time without sacrificing speed of rendering. I typically assume we're only seeing half to a quarter of the actual forces/locations/time involved in anything. Like... for me, SB takes place over an entire year just with how long it takes to move troops around an area that big. Never mind the 4-5 months we spend sailing to/back from Kugane, the however many weeks it took to find Reunion and how ever long it took for Nadaam to come around. And skirmishes have been happening that entire time back in Ala Mhigo... Yes... this is why teleportation is so important... faster travel time change a lot of strategies.

Magic makes up for a hell of a lot. And I'm not just talking a Thumaturge's literal firepower. Conjurers probably heal way faster then anything else Garlemald has, Arcanists have been using bio-warfare and focusing on strategy since forever and lets not get into how much Thunder spells must screw up anything electricity based. And this is Eorzea, where the Source of all Aether is located. They've probably got more mages as a percentage of the population then anywhere else does.

The one thing I see Eorzea being really bad at is war in three dimensions. They're still fighting it like the most important battles are happening on the ground when Garlemald invented air-travel. For the most part anyway. Ishgard has been fighting against dragons for a millennium so they've probably got the best idea in the Alliance how to do it. The Xaela are probably even better at it though since the way they determine who is a warrior and who isn't is by essentially seeing if they can fight in the air or not.

Also... I feel like bringing up the Agrius isn't a good presentation of Garlemald's situation. We've only seen two of them in the game and it's implied in HW that it takes a long time to construct one (according to the lore book, there were only two of them). What we do see a lot of is small Juggernauts, gunships and assault crafts which are more on the scale of a Colossus. You'd still need multiple people to take them down, but it's not like it would be impossible if they knew what they were doing either.

[silentwindfr]

magic is not that important in the city too, remember that the alliance troops only use class at best, it make no sense that the thaumaturge can take down a battleship or even an escorter with bow and a few magic of thaumaturge.
the trouble of the game engine can explain, but they can still use them with Cut scene, what have never happend soo far.


plus dragon have a few ranged attack but most of the dragon the troops of ishgard did fight are small dragon or the one transformed. that why when big dragon show up they have suffer loose. plus is not the same to answer from an attack from a dragon that will attack from middle range to battleship that can simply do long range bombardement from sky.

and it's why they didn't use them in stormblood, like i have said, the alliance have simply no way to fight an air bombardement right now. what is concerning for the futur. stormblood was nice, but it didn't feel like a war... more skirmish followed by another and another and another one. not true war, what we are into now. the alliance did start a war against the empire for retake the area.

but what bother more, is doma... doma was retake with less troops than while the first rebellion. yes we had some help from xanthia and from the kojin, but i feel the area of doma is too small probably because it the game engine or the way it's done, but we have seen one village, the capital and that all, it make the world really really small. i dunno, i feel the number of soldier and such present are not representative enough for really paint a world at war.

they really need to put more work into it. even if they are forced to use some trick for make us feel like we are in a war. an example that was really interesting is FF8, when the two school fight each other and where our group cross the battlefield, it's a corridor, no real interaction, but you had the feeling to be in middle of a battlefield. here, never i had this feel, even the battle of ala miggho is... well it's not present, we do see 3-5 people fighting each other and that all.


about the fleet, the empire true don't have tons of ship of the size of the agrius, however, they have battleship far smaller that can be used for transport and bombardement, why they don't do it?

by the way the only time we did take down one of the escorter ship it's in the praetorium and it by using the base against it. because honestly we have no weapon for really damage this sort of ship... like our character is not strop enough for destroy a simply navy ship. we are strong we can deal damage, it's true, but we are not a walking devastation.

[Belhi]

I think a few people are missing some important details. Realistically, at its full strength Eorzea doesn't stand much of a chance against the full might of Garlemald. If SB showed one thing its that the full strength of the Eorzean Alliance and the Doma Resistance and their Allies only beat 1 legion spread over two provinces because their leadership was unstable and more interested in having a fight than winning. Zenos could have ended the whole thing before we even left the Fringe.

The Eorzean Alliance clearly has the means to counter enemy Airships. If it didn't Garlemald would have conquered Eorzea before our WoLs had even started their adventuring life. Just cause we don't specifically know what magic and/or weaponry they use doesn't mean it isn't the case. Hell maybe they use corrupted crystals to screw the Airship's lifters or something. As I said before, if a BLM can cast a spell that can hit a comet in outer space, a lesser casting discipline should be able to at least manage hitting an Airship.

The other thing I think a lot of people are missing is the importance of Doma and Ala Mhigo to the Garleans. They are about as provincial as you can get. They are small, relatively unimportant locations on the edge of the empire. Losing them is definitely unacceptable but most Garleans probably don't think of them much. Its a long way from the heart of the empire. Considering Zenos probably could have won if he wanted to most Garleans probably didn't expect him to let the countries fall. Varis might have but I think he has his mind on things he considers more important.

Now even then letting provinces rebel is something the Garleans don't want to let slide. However Hein specifically mentions his Shinobi travelled into Garlean territory to insight rebellion in provinces inspired by Ala Mhigo and Doma. That means that currently Garlemald is focused on keeping the territories it still holds under control. We know for example that Rabinastre rebelled. There are likely other areas too. The Garleans aren't going to go after Doma and Ala Mhigo when they risk losing provinces they still hold. Doing so would further risk destabilisation as the likelihood for conscripts to desert if their homeland has rebelled will increase.\

Honestly I am not sure what people wanted. Did you want us to lose? Its hardly like we took the Doma and Ala Mhigo without a fight.

I also wouldn't point to WoW as a great example of an alternative. WoW generally has the current villain do something destructive at the start of the expansion and then literally the rest of the expansion is that villain and all its agents getting steamrolled. The 'endless population' issue is one that is true for all factions within WoW. The Alliance races have been devastated as much as the Horde ones have and they are able to put up just as many troops. I would argue that FF14 has more of a sense of risk of losing. The fact that Zenos could so casually kick our asses actually made him seem like an intimidating threat.

Of course there is always going to be limitation on what they can show. It is an MMO after all. Nidhogg couldn't realistically destroy Ishgard, which was his goal. That would be impractical. What if someone hadn't levelled a DRK and wanted to? What if they wanted to do side quests? What about any achievements tied to the city? Now referring back to WoW, they are doing something pretty flashy in their expansion with the destruction of two hubs but they have highly refined tech which allows them to have the city in different 'phases' so a player can switch back to the old version if they wish. I don't think FF14's engine has as flexible phasing as an option.

In the end I see us moving away from open war and more into a political one. I don't think in the end Garlemald will seriously try to take back either Doma or Ala Mhigo. If they turn up they will be after something else. Events are starting to spin up in Garlemald and honestly I think the powers that be there are going to be less concerned about a couple of upstart border provinces than whatever is going to be starting to move in the heart of Garlemald.

Oh yeah and the Eorzean Alliance isn't going to invade Garlemald. They don't have the numbers, the resources or the capacity to manage that. Not even close.

[VargasVermillion]

Wanting to lose is silly and simply an unrealistic expectation for this story. The garleans are destined to lose, we know this. however a good antagonist has to actually be shown as a threat before beating them to get a more stratifying end, the lore has stated numerous times that the garleans are near unprecedented in the field of war due to their airships yet we hardly see those airships do anything significant, sure they show us ruins from past battles but never in scenario.

Take the juggernauts getting knocked out of the sky, sure it might be a visual spectacle to see a powerful warrior knock one out of the sky however we've never actually seen how capable those machina are and so far it just seems like they aren't even good for what they're supposed to be for. A scene like that would have more impact if we actually witnessed what those ships are capable of.