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  1. #21
    Player
    HaroldSaxon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Harold Saxon
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ManuelBravo View Post
    To test I use https://www.mooglemedia.com/blm-guide/ and have tested it in my opinion is one of the best guides out there. Second if your on PC their is a program that can measure your DPS called ACT (Active combat Tracker ). This is something that raid leaders use. I've worked some people to gauge that for me. To proof my point you can do all the testing that you like it still won't change the one key point...player experience that is needed to properly measure. Now then based on your analysis I can tell you one thing for sure. Not everyone is at the same point in terms of experience with raids. Some are better than others and can really shine. The problems is their experience during the battle. As a BLM one of the major problems is the casting times and CD vs the flow of battle. In other words it's no surprise BLM would be one of the lower DPS when they are constantly moving. I mean come on even in normal raids some BLM are completely incompetent and lack experience, don't understand basic mechanics, and are ignorant of the 80% cast off timer vs 100%. It's no surprise that BLM players think something is wrong. Once again basics that have been constantly talked about in various threads. Nothing new.
    Do me a favor - go read the guide. Its an alright guide, it has its issues and misses some things out, however nothing in that guide backs your argument up. Also, check the end of the guide - the mentions part. Then check my character name again.

    Also, there is a website that uses the method you talk about to generate statistics for each job - All the uptime figures people have quoted, the raw DPS numbers and raid dps numbers are taken from the same method you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llugen View Post
    I don't intend to turn this thread into another Zera-vs-everyone-about-Raise thread, but I'll merely say your accusation of "peddling" is a bit of a low blow, particularly if you didn't spend any time reading our discussion in the thread (Edit: sorry I just read your response to the other thread, and I do agree that "something unique" should be put on, but that -something- should be in the spirit of Raise as off-GCD in my opinion). Certainly no one wants Raise as a GCD on the class as is the current implementation on the other job, but recovery tools are an important consideration for the job (yes recovery, not just shielding) to compete with the other jobs, and therefore it should be carefully considered.

    Making a dual caster comp viable might go a ways toward helping this issue kinda, since you're no longer "locking your group" out from access to raise on DPS if you bring BLM/SMN or BLM/RDM, however as you said, this is going to take some consideration, and I'm not sure I see this really becoming viable anytime soon, particularly as soon as 4.2.

    Aside from the Raise argument, EVERYONE wants more damage on the job, certainly, but the way that I really want to see that happen is through reliable procs. Thunder Ready and "Firestorm" (check out my other suggestion threads) would go a long way toward this, adding another Fire IV to your rotation inherently and simultaneously increasing the number of Thundercloud procs you get and their potency value through "Thundersting" (again, read my other suggestion threads). Furthermore, more procs inherently means more chances to move for brief spurts and weave off-GCDs. It's a win-win-win situation.

    Apparently I'm the only one who likes this idea, but lastly I want to see a passive party-wide stat buff coming from Enhanced Enochian like crit buff from BRD's songs. It wouldn't make the gameplay ANY different for the job, but because it's now buffing party members, parties would want BLMs more rather than just accusing them of being selfish. Currently, parties WANT RDMs and SMNs, they don't want BLMs, so careful consideration should be taken to figure out how this can be desirable. Even SAM could be "wanted" in DRK/PLD groups for slashing, if nothing else. There is zero benefit from bringing BLM outside "raw damage" which we already established isn't even actually true at the moment.
    I dislike the trend to make classes carbon copies of another. If I want to play a caster with a supportive role, i'd play SMN. If I want to play a carry role, i'd want to BLM (if its fixed). If I want to play Rez-mage, i'd play RDM. Lets not make all the classes copies of eachother. If all the casters could raise and multi caster comps were viable, it would be pretty broken imo to allow that many raises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remedi View Post
    I tried to explain that using MCH example of bringing a raid dps that is integral to your rotation could be a solution, but seems I'm not making myself clear

    even using that DRK/PLD example for SAM in a non NIN comp (which happened) true it's rare but it's still possible
    The thing is, its still providing raidwide DPS. Even if its part of your rotation (and remember, Bard's buffs are also selfish too - so is trick attack, so is Embolden) - its still raid dps. Not every class should have raid dps. It would be pretty boring if every class did. Variety is the spice of life Lets actually have "DPS Carries" like SAM and BLM be viable options. They don't have to be optimal and meta in all fights - but if they are like SMN and close to the meta, its certainly a step forward.
    (8)

  2. #22
    Player
    Remedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,465
    Character
    Remedi Maxwell
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 70
    BRD only dmg buff that affects him is foe and they still have to sacrifice MP for it's uptime so in a way it's the BRD sacrificing something (and a GCD) to bring support to everyone.
    The rest of the BRD supportive skills either do not affects him or they require some working around or are single targets, MCH is not like that Hypercharge is integral to their toolkit and their entire toolkit is based around WF and generally speaking is more tailored to be dps centric, DIsmantle is there mostly because ANY DPS in the game brings a dmg down effect of some sort.

    That's the difference I'm looking at active support over passive. DPS centric jobs could bring passive support in some way and we already have the precedent with SAM.

    On ultimate dps rankings MCH is about 150 or so dps higher than BRD (somewhat before raidwise buffs) and quite frankly BRD as an advantage over MCH in that fight.
    If we consider the fact that MCH is a more dps centric job than BRD we can use that as a template for dps carries too.

    However, You are not wrong in the fact that if everyone brings hypercharge/trick attack then it's not something special and it is a risk atm.
    (0)
    Last edited by Remedi; 01-03-2018 at 10:49 PM.

  3. #23
    Player
    Tsilyi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    223
    Character
    Tsilyi L'sombra
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 70
    not on topic but what else is brd using mana for if not foe requiem in current content? they no longer sacrifice anything to use foes.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player
    Remedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,465
    Character
    Remedi Maxwell
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 70
    You could say the same for literally every non magical dps
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player
    Llugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    585
    Character
    Zera Vyre
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70
    The thing is, the classes don't NEED to be "copies" of each other. RDM hits hard and has dualcast, as well as the melee combo/dash in-dash out. SMN has strong DoTs, fillers, and off-GCD nukes/burst phases. BLM has "sustained" hardcasted "turret" damage. This alone makes the classes different enough from a gameplay standpoint to make it matter less to me if their actual tools are pretty similar. Being capable of the same things is different than having the same playstyle/feel, and in my opinion that's the difference as far as good vs bad "homogenization" is concerned.

    The issue with the logic of "raw damage caster vs support caster vs res dispenser caster" is that it is ONLY the caster role that has additional access to Raise outside the healers as far as DPS classes are concerned. You're shooting yourself/yourselves in the foot by playing/bringing BLM over a class that has recovery. This is why I brought up the SAM/BLM paradox in the other thread; if you want a "strong damage" class in your group, it makes more sense to bring SAM for it and then SMN/RDM for the support than it does to bring BLM and then have no additional access to support.


    If you're interested in pushing for the viability of multi-caster comps, then I could see how it'd be valid, but I don't really see it becoming viable in the near future. But at any rate, let's discuss the REAL issue: resistance down strictness.


    Give RDM piercing down and BLM magic vuln up, then you could do RDM/BLM/BRD/NIN (and pray they fix VIT for tanks again). BLM buffs the RDM, RDM buffs the BRD, etc. This, however, all flies in the face of "DPS carry"; good groups don't want DPS carries, they want synergistic burst phases with the "support DPS" so that everyone can do strong damage. This is why BLM needs some synergy outside of just selfish DPS.
    (1)
    Last edited by Llugen; 01-03-2018 at 11:51 PM.

  6. #26
    Player
    Remedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,465
    Character
    Remedi Maxwell
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 70
    To give an example on why I think Hypercharge could be used as a model.

    Imagine a Manadrive ability for BLM: increases the potency of ALL your spells by 20 for 20 secs(?) additional effect: Magical dmg done by you increases target chance to be direct hit by 4% last 5 secs CD 120 secs

    It would grant us a Burst and a source of raid dps (plus a unique effect)

    I don't think that alone would let us become support, our toolkit would still be too much dps centric but it would allow us to bring something
    (0)
    Last edited by Remedi; 01-03-2018 at 11:54 PM.

  7. #27
    Player
    ManuelBravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Milpitas , CA
    Posts
    2,132
    Character
    Manuel Bravo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon View Post
    Do me a favor - go read the guide. Its an alright guide, it has its issues and misses some things out, however nothing in that guide backs your argument up. Also, check the end of the guide - the mentions part. Then check my character name again..
    Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data. Lets take a couple of things into consideration;



    First: your sources;

    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon View Post
    Introduction
    Lack of Raid DPS
    This can be solved in a number of ways - however, I feel that part of the buff should increase the power to umbral hearts as there are situations where using Blizzard 4 is a dps loss. At the end of the day, BLM needs to have enough DPS to justify it not having utility, and its not even close to achieving that. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/ (thanks to /u/blackcatchen) - this isn't 100% accurate, as it favors the damage dealing classes rather than the source of the utility (as you can read here: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/changelog). But even with this favoring classes like SAM/BLM rather than Raid DPS classes - we get absolutely smoked. Even if you compare it to SAM (which has more DPS and doesn't have the uptime issues BLM has) - its inferior. And SAM also deserves buffs (along with RDM, but that's a whole different debate in my opinion as it has something absolutely unique).

    They are not really off, being that your being "Smoked" is more of player competence and understanding. Your source is more of estimation and like you mentioned not 100% and really gives no actual data just estimations. I'm referring to Trial runs, actual testing. Mine at least were of a set of various communities that have tested. If your raid leader or even yourself were to use ACT you may see a complete different perspective. Your estimated numbers may even lack recommended just to get a new perspective you should try it.

    Second; Play smart not hard

    I have taken a look at your character, Glad you have cleared content. However having SUM/BLM/RDM and BRD at 70 you can't really compare much in terms of actual experience with other jobs. Maybe you used BRD instead to clear? I Don't know. All you have proven is that it can be done. Kind of that controversy that DRK was broken yet it was able to clear Ultimate coil. what is your point with me looking at your character? Are we comparing achievements? completion? Jobs?

    I love BLM however I rather play smart and enjoy the game than make others compensate for my lack of dmg. Being that BLM is squishy healers have to work extra hard to keep them alive. ( From what I have seen and experienced.) Hence why SUM would be a prefer Mage dmg type being it's more flexible and does not depend much on staying in one place. Hence I have SUM as a back up when I can't really depend on my BLM. ( I hate having people carry me ) BLM may not be the most dependable for salvage content and it all really depends on how stubborn you want to be. I have tanked / DPS / and Magic DPS and over all I rather use close range on some and BLM for others. What is your point again? It's all a matter of personal perspective and experience. Now I will ask again do you have a link to an actual community that has tested your theory?

    Once again might want to check BLM past threads since last update to them.
    (0)
    Last edited by ManuelBravo; 01-04-2018 at 12:37 AM. Reason: character limit

  8. #28
    Player
    Llugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    585
    Character
    Zera Vyre
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70
    ....Pretty sure he wrote the guide.... Or helped write it, anyway.
    (2)

  9. #29
    Player
    ManuelBravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Milpitas , CA
    Posts
    2,132
    Character
    Manuel Bravo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Llugen View Post
    ....Pretty sure he wrote the guide.... Or helped write it, anyway.
    really? what part?
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player
    Llugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    585
    Character
    Zera Vyre
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70








    ....Sorry to use you as such an example, but this is the kind of thing that makes us facepalm really hard. It's like watching Prism argue with Sfia about BLM in the other threads.

    Note: It's not that we "at the top" are perfect players, but when it comes to the feel of the class, probably those who actually push the prog/write the guides/do the math know a thing or two more about how the class works than everyone else. Just throwing that out there. Again, we also make mistakes, and I don't mean to be rude or super elitist, but it's rather disquieting to be straight-up told "you don't understand how the class works" by people who actually don't know how the class works.
    (11)
    Last edited by Llugen; 01-04-2018 at 01:08 AM.

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