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  1. #691
    Player
    JohnnyDevo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    108
    Character
    J'majha Devo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dualgunner View Post
    EDIT: Worth noting if you're using its weaponskills, you're being bad at the job. When enchanted, the attacks are unaspected magic, not weaponskills.
    Not quite. While it is true that most things do physical damage as weaponskills or unaspected magic damage as spells, red mage's enchanted weaponskills are an exception. While they deal unaspected magic damage and benefit from all things that help magic damage, they are still weaponskills and follow all rules that apply.

    This, however, is mostly irrelevant, excepting one case. A red mage using his enchanted melee combo while buffed with brotherhood will have a chance at giving the monk additional chakras. Not much benefit for the monk since it's only 3 weaponskills in the duration, but it's there.

    Related, brotherhood buffs physical damage, which benefits the red mage's ogcd abilities specifically. Making this relationship one of the lowest-benefit two-way synergies in the game.
    (3)

  2. #692
    Player
    Dualgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,104
    Character
    Lilila Lila
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo View Post
    Not quite. While it is true that most things do physical damage as weaponskills or unaspected magic damage as spells, red mage's enchanted weaponskills are an exception.
    You are very right. I apologize, the difference between the two confuses me at times; I extend that apology to Ceallach, for making such a claim without making sure.
    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki View Post
    AND DUAL WHO IS THE BEST.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemekh View Post
    There is always something someone can learn to do better no matter where they sit in terms of play ability - regardless of whether the errors were identified with a parser or otherwise.
    Main: Sora Maxwell the Red Mage, Alt: Lilila Lila the Machinist
    #Dualgunner7456
    Add me on Discord if ya like

  3. #693
    Player
    Cynfael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,144
    Character
    Testament De'anris
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
    What people like you have to understand...
    This is getting absurd. I was extremely clear when I explained my comment. You have an enormous chip on your shoulder when it comes to lore discussion and are reading disparagement where it doesn't exist and hasn't even been hinted at.

    Nowhere have I said or implied that lore is unimportant. I have, however, stated that lore discussion isn't necessarily (and is usually not at all) the same thing as gameplay discussion.
    (1)

  4. #694
    Player
    Ceallach's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    190
    Character
    Ceallach Ruarc
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dualgunner View Post
    Okay, goalposts are now at "if a class has mechanics of a different role it's a hybrid."
    That's not what I was getting at. It makes sense for white mages to have attack spells because it's not historically inaccurate. They had Banish and Dia for ages, for example. Besides, the red mage has always been a jack of all trades, so having elements of basically every role other than tank and physical ranged DPS makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualgunner View Post
    You are very right. I apologize, the difference between the two confuses me at times; I extend that apology to Ceallach, for making such a claim without making sure.
    No worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynfael View Post
    Nowhere have I said or implied that lore is unimportant. I have, however, stated that lore discussion isn't necessarily (and is usually not at all) the same thing as gameplay discussion.
    Actually, that "it's not unimportant" bit was not clear to me. The way I see it, ignoring or disrespecting the lore (the latter of which mainly Llugen is guilty of) is tantamount to not understanding what an RPG is, or even disrespecting the devs themselves.

    And if you think I'm hard on you, you should see what I do to myself when I make mistakes...
    (2)

  5. #695
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,633
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
    Actually, that "it's not unimportant" bit was not clear to me. The way I see it, ignoring or disrespecting the lore (the latter of which mainly Llugen is guilty of) is tantamount to not understanding what an RPG is, or even disrespecting the devs themselves.
    A game with great lore and terribly balanced gameplay is the same thing as a game with terrible lore and terribly balanced gameplay.
    (0)

  6. #696
    Player
    zuzu-bq's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    729
    Character
    Zuzu Belloq
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70
    XIV gameplay is miles more balanced than people try to make it look.
    (4)

  7. #697
    Player
    Ceallach's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    190
    Character
    Ceallach Ruarc
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by zuzu-bq View Post
    XIV gameplay is miles more balanced than people try to make it look.
    Just look at FINAL FANTASY XI. If you were a dragoon, puppetmaster, rune fencer, or even a red mage (later on), you were basically just not wanted by anyone ever. In FINAL FANTASY XIV, black mage does decent DPS. The balance problem lies in the fact black mage does only DPS while summoner does more than DPS and more DPS than black mage. Whether black mage should get a Raise variant is a stupid question. Black mage needs more DPS and really not much else.

    But hey, people like Kabooa can not care about the game's lore all they like. As long as it's understood lore shapes what jobs and classes can do, that's enough to satisfy me.
    (2)

  8. #698
    Player
    HaroldSaxon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Harold Saxon
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
    Just look at FINAL FANTASY XI. If you were a dragoon, puppetmaster, rune fencer, or even a red mage (later on), you were basically just not wanted by anyone ever. In FINAL FANTASY XIV, black mage does decent DPS. The balance problem lies in the fact black mage does only DPS while summoner does more than DPS and more DPS than black mage. Whether black mage should get a Raise variant is a stupid question. Black mage needs more DPS and really not much else.

    But hey, people like Kabooa can not care about the game's lore all they like. As long as it's understood lore shapes what jobs and classes can do, that's enough to satisfy me.
    That absolutely is not the issue though (SMN). If you think BLM's problem is just SMN - you are flat out incorrect. Black Mage not only needs DPS, but a whole lot of QoL/class design changes as well as changes to the general meta of DPS classes - SMN infact isn't actually the problem. Its DRG/BRD/MCH/NIN.

    Black Mages are flat out not wanted by anyone ever.
    (3)

  9. #699
    Player
    Ceallach's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    190
    Character
    Ceallach Ruarc
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon View Post
    That absolutely is not the issue though (SMN). If you think BLM's problem is just SMN - you are flat out incorrect. Black Mage not only needs DPS, but a whole lot of QoL/class design changes as well as changes to the general meta of DPS classes - SMN infact isn't actually the problem. Its DRG/BRD/MCH/NIN.

    Black Mages are flat out not wanted by anyone ever.
    I wouldn't mind things like Enochian becoming completely a trait and Disciples of Magic being more wanted in general. My points are simply that black mage should not get a Raise variant and whatever changes are made need to match with the game's lore. That's it. That's all I care about as far as this thread is concerned.

    Now, if this thread were about overall balance in the meta, then sure, we could talk about the party composition problems, and I do agree with you there.
    (0)

  10. #700
    Player
    HaroldSaxon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Harold Saxon
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
    I wouldn't mind things like Enochian becoming completely a trait and Disciples of Magic being more wanted in general. My points are simply that black mage should not get a Raise variant and whatever changes are made need to match with the game's lore. That's it. That's all I care about as far as this thread is concerned.

    Now, if this thread were about overall balance in the meta, then sure, we could talk about the party composition problems, and I do agree with you there.
    I absolutely agree that Black Mage shouldn't get a Raise variant. However it needs a lot more than just a dps numbers buff that will never be enough.
    (4)

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