Snailfish Oil Rotation Discussion (regarding the Maker's Mark Rotation)

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The new rotations have already been posted by numerous members tayler1480 on this forum. But more specifically, I want to discuss the Maker's Mark rotation here.

To update those who dont know, there are currently at least two viable approaches regarding rotations. (A) maker's mark rotation, which we all hate how long it is. But although its initial FS spam phase is RNG based (quality part is still prudent-based, so that part is not RNG based), it is still usually ending up being the strongest approach, due to how much progress you can get out of it while maintaining almost full CP. (B) the initial prep rotation, which is paired with specialist skills (and that is ok since you need to be specialist to craft the recipe anyway). This rotation uses reflect to boost up IQ stack before your first touch, thus helping with quality by a lot. This rotation uses no RNG but will need to spend a significant amount of CP and durab on progress. This rotation usually give fewer available touches, and it usually does not leave you much extra CP at the end. (Keep in mind that even if you reach IQ11, the total quality you accumulated from touches is still going to be less because you "skipped" a few touches to reach IQ4 using Reflect)

As mentioned in the 1st paragraph, I wanna talk about the maker's mark rotation. It is almost a consensus now that we all start with Maker's Mark, CZ, IQ, SH, Pbpx3 (which your durab will end up at 40 after this), and then FS spam +CZ renewals. Here comes two items for discussion:

(1) when your CP is approaching max during the FS spam phase, what do you do? For me, when my CP is near max, and if my durab is 40, I use a naked precise touch. (I don't use Precise touch here anymore.) I use 1 Patient Touch during the SH II + 3x PBP phase. This burns off some CP, reducing durab to 30, and hopefully if it succeeds it sends me to IQ3. If my CP maxes again, and my durab is 30, I use manip2 to burn off the CP, and start recovering durab. I then activate Manip2 right away before the FS spam. This burns off the CP, and the durab will slowly recover back to max. At this point, I can freely take any Trick of Trade without the worry of overshooting the max CP.

(2) although this rotation is RNG-based in the initial phase, you will usually end up with a crap load of CP, meaning you will be doing mostly prudent touches under ingenuity1 for the quality part. The question here is, what do you do when IQ hits 11, but still having much CP left? For me, instead of going miracle and try to rebuild IQ stack for Brow, I would usually try to utilize my CP for a bunch more regular touches... If durab allows, I would just throw down more prudent touches. Each seems to add a crap load of quality. If durab does not allow, I would spend my CP on things like Manip2, and then Hasty or Prudent my way on, until I enter the byregot phase with 128 CP. I tend to believe this approach being more secure than the miracle approach. (With the discussions on this thread, I have found the use of "Miracle+Brow" to be stronger than "Blessing". Please see the whole thread below, including the analysis on page 2.) For me, I now try to save up 167 CP for a "Miracle+Brow" finisher phase. It eats up 39 more CP and consumes 10 more durab, but it reliably adds ~3K more quality than the "Blessing" approach.

What are you guys' opinion on this? Do you agree with what I do? Disagree? Do you have suggestions for me to improve it further? Thanks!

[MN_14]

These crafts are mathematically simpler than the older crafts but there are so many options that it’s difficult to pinpoint the best strategy. My strategy might not necessarily be anywhere close to the best, but it works reasonably well enough. I’ll discuss how I handle all NQ synths at min requirements and my reasoning. Once I start adding HQ components, my strategy can change drastically.

1. I start my first quality phase and then use a durability restore to spend down CP. I never use precise touch at this point because I have no clue whether I’ll be needing that CP later on where it counts more. The designers have introduced patient touch, which can be used as kind of a low-cost alternative. Goodbye precise touch (most of the time)!

2. This is where a lot of crafters will likely employ different strategies.

I’ve been using Ingenuity 2 (tried four synths under Ingenuity 1 but only managed ~90% each time) but I don’t start using it until I’ve built up a significantly large enough of an IQ stack. I try to buff my touches where it counts the most, so the majority of my Ingenuity buffed touches are at 11 stacks of IQ. Since I consider stack building steps to be of lower value (11 stacks of IQ is practically going to be a given by the end of the synth anyways), hello again hasty touch!

Under Ingenuity 2, I find I have to use HTs again due to increasingly tight CP constraints. However, excess CP can be used for HT2 or prudent touch. I use prudent touches extremely sparingly.

In most of my synths, the last 2k quality is difficult to achieve so I look for situational specific ways of boosting quality. This is difficult to document.

As for spec abilities, I haven't tried using them yet, but I'd likely mostly just use whistle and nymaea's wheel (maybe satisfaction too).

[StouterTaru]

(1) when your CP is approaching max during the FS spam phase, what do you do?

I add on 2 Precise/Prudent touches to the 3 PbP's (under SH2). If CP is approaching max, Manipulation II.

For quality I just cram as many touches as possible and end with MiracleBro:
SH2
<up to 2 touches>
ING2
GS
Inno
Miracle
GS
Brow
CS 3

[Caimie_Tsukino]

After I posted this thread, I started using less and less HQ mats, and I find myself liking the use of Patient Touch during the PBP phase... so now I favor the use of SH II, PBP, PBP, PBP, Patient Touch. If it fails, I'll Patient Touch it again. It seems to work quite nicely, and now I can use only 1 HQ aethersand to HQ my Snailfish Oil.

SNIP

Does anyone know for sure whether the "Miracle + Brow" approach is better than the "more touches at IQ11 and then Blessing" approach?
Maybe I will look into this myself later... could be interesting...

[Ostwar]

Does anyone know for sure whether the "Miracle + Brow" approach is better than the "more touches at IQ11 and then Blessing" approach?
Maybe I will look into this myself later... could be interesting...

My quality route starts off with 2 patient touches under SH2, with luck I get to 5 IQ stacks right away (yes RNG, but worth it). If I get those stacks I can reach 11 IQ for Miracle and rebuild up to 9 stacks for Brow, both under GS. Hard to beat that with just Blessing. I can reliably hit 100% Quality with 4k starting quality, but I usually go for 6-8k for padding.

[Kaurhz]

There are instances to where you can actually use Manip II in the Flawless Synth phase and recover all, if not most of your CP, and if all of it is recovered, plus an additional one in the quality build phase, then I've had instances where I could in fact use Byregot's Miracle, then build some more stacks, and go for a Blessing, but saying that is like asking for luck of the gods somewhat. I never really had it fixed to a 'standard' rotation at that point, just depended on the procs I got and the CP I had, but I'm personally skipping Maker's Mark entirely now.

It's great, extremely powerful even, but I don't want to spend an entire expansion doing Maker's Mark

[Ostwar]

(1) when your CP is approaching max during the FS spam phase, what do you do?

Although I have tried ManII to recover duro, I find that sometimes I get shafted by RNG on recovering full CP. I have had more luck with Whistle right after SH1 falls off on the post PBP stage. It costs less CP to start and recovers a ton more CP if red balls (good conditions ) proc. If I get the 6 required red balls to drop whistle stacks to 2, then I Nimeas Wheel for the 30 duro I need and if that fails I can usually run a MM1 to get the 30 duro and still have time to recover enough CP to get back to full.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

There are instances to where you can actually use Manip II in the Flawless Synth phase and recover all, if not most of your CP, and if all of it is recovered, plus an additional one in the quality build phase, then I've had instances where I could in fact use Byregot's Miracle, then build some more stacks, and go for a Blessing, but saying that is like asking for luck of the gods somewhat. I never really had it fixed to a 'standard' rotation at that point, just depended on the procs I got and the CP I had, but I'm personally skipping Maker's Mark entirely now.

It's great, extremely powerful even, but I don't want to spend an entire expansion doing Maker's Mark

Right, I now favor the use of SH II, PBPx3, and then Patient Touch... this way, durab goes down to 30, and I can easily use Manip2 during the FS spam phase. The Patient Touch, if succeeded then wonderful. If not, then I can try it 1 more time before the SH II ends. Either way, there will be enough durab consumption at that point to use Manip2. Then there will be plenty of room for ToT during Maker's Mark.

Although I have tried ManII to recover duro, I find that sometimes I get shafted by RNG on recovering full CP. I have had more luck with Whistle right after SH1 falls off on the post PBP stage. It costs less CP to start and recovers a ton more CP if red balls (good conditions ) proc. If I get the 6 required red balls to drop whistle stacks to 2, then I Nimeas Wheel for the 30 duro I need and if that fails I can usually run a MM1 to get the 30 duro and still have time to recover enough CP to get back to full.

Oh that is an interesting approach you got there. Yeah, Whistle could be a nice choice if you expect CP to hit near max soon.

[MN_14]

I might give the spec abilities a go later.

I can confirm that 2x patient touch works well as I've found that I've gotten the following results:

1. 2 of them land: good chance for 90-100%
2. 1'st misses but the next 2nd lands: good for 85-100% usually. It's like missing a 6 CP HT
3. 1'st lands, 2nd misses, 3rd lands: can be good for 80%+ still
4. 2 miss in a row somewhere: Uh oh, can be 70% or less territory but not necessarily a total fail. This is because of how powerful your Ingenuity 2 buffed touches will be and you save your big guns for that part.

You're going to be in serious trouble if your IQ stack is too low prior to using Ingenuity 2. If my stacks are too low and I determine that I will not jeopardize my ability to keep Ingen2 up later/restore my durability sufficiently, using precise touch at that point isn't a bad idea.

With a single HQ mat, you should be able to remove 1 Patient Touch (or if you manage to increase the number of touches; this will depend on how much CP you can get).

I use 15-17 touches total and buff the 9 most powerful so I find that these synths are not particularly sensitive to poor RNG or crafting failure. You do want to balance your CP use between durability restores and buffs. I prioritize simply keeping Ingenuity 2 up first and foremost and then will spend extra CP on HT2 to reduce RNG or prudent touch, which I use for primarily for it's ability to add additional touches step-wise, rather than it's RNG free nature.

From what I've seen, you should be able to get 100% over 50% of the time with most others falling from 85-96%. The better you optimize, buff, manage your CP, the higher your 100% rate will be, but that takes experience mostly.

[Kenji1134]

For the final progress step, how much is CS3 doing for you guys at the craftsmanship requirement?