Okay, It's Two-Way Communication Time

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

What worries me is that perhaps the determination for this was based on all the activity in Shatter. To which I must clarify something. . .

SE: Shatter is NOT popular because players like it. It's actually the most hated Frontlines game mode ever, and has been since its introduction. Shatter is only "popular" because it's still the newest mode, thus everyone queues for it.

Just as Hestzhyen said, I want to fight other players in PLAYER VS PLAYER modes. No, not the Feast. Quick Chat, poor updating of the medal system to match the overall changes, and all the rampant cheating/wintrading in there has put me off of that. And Shatter. . . ugh, yes ice is important, but if I want to hit a static target, there are striking dummies everywhere in game. Even the drones/heliodrome at least did damage back in Secure. I'm not saying objective based PvP isn't good, but when the objective completely outweighs the PvP aspect (or rather when the PvP aspect holds no weight in comparison to accomplishing the objective), it may as well be another PvE mode.

[Zojha]

I'm not saying objective based PvP isn't good, but when the objective completely outweighs the PvP aspect (or rather when the PvP aspect holds no weight in comparison to accomplishing the objective), it may as well be another PvE mode.

That, too, is primarily because of healers. In side skirmishes without healers, you can regularly see people fighting each other, rather than the ice, because they can kill each other on their own - And killing a DPS without a healer is fast enough to make it well worth it on its own, doubly so if you can reset the ice. With healers, people usually just focus the ice and disengage afterwards. The same frequently happens on large ice - if you come without healers, prepare to be attacked, only bots don't take advantage of that. With healers around, though, people just don't bother, if they fight at all, they fight after the ice is done, because killing anything takes way too long to be worth it.

You can put a bigger incentive on killing players in Shatter easily by transferring the ice credit of a player to the killer if you manage to kill a player. But I can already tell you that even that would not be enough to make people attack each other on the ice if healers are present - it's just never worth it.

And honestly, if League of Legends had healers of our caliber in their game, they'd never do anything but last-hit and attack towers either. Heck, the healers they have already caused similar issues in the laning phase back in the days. Soraka vs Sona, the infamous snoozefest of yore! And those never had more than a fraction of the power our healers have.

Expect every objective based mode to be similar to Shatter in that regard. Secure plays similar, PvP only happens when drones aren't up. And likewise in Seal Rock, when your tomelith is safe and no tomelith is gonna spawn soon. That isn't new. Rival Wings is gonna be similar and it doesn't even take the weird warmechs for that. And this is ONE part of why Morello once called dedicated healers toxic design, against much hate and ridicule from the community. I suggest you get used to it - it's gonna stay and possibly get worse.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

In a non-healer environment, tanks will take healer OPness because their combo allows regen.
One way mechanic can help to survive is having an escape tool like BLM/NIN, maybe a vehicle
which you need to commandeer or a nearby teleport access to other points.

[Geryth]

That, too, is primarily because of healers. ... With healers around, though, people just don't bother, if they fight at all, they fight after the ice is done, because killing anything takes way too long to be worth it. ...

You can put a bigger incentive on killing players in Shatter easily by transferring the ice credit of a player to the killer if you manage to kill a player. But I can already tell you that even that would not be enough to make people attack each other on the ice if healers are present - it's just never worth it.

This is so absolutely true. I've been playing a ton of BLM lately and since ice has 50% magic resistance, my main goal when ices are up are to look for enemy players to try to pick off. There seems to always be one jerk of a healer that follows players to side ices. And unless opponents are dumb and trickle into big ices, there will always be healers at big ices, and since most DPS are on the ice, I can never out damage a healer solo even as a BLM. So I find in many situations where I would love to be able to wail on enemies for some PvP goodness, the presence of healers largely makes that a wasted effort, and I'm losing our team points if I'm not putting my awful magic DPS on the ice.

...and I may at times frustratingly pound on someone who's just getting healed for no other reason than to inflate my damage dealt for the match.

...and I may at times have a lot of fun foregoing any DPS, particularly when ices are up and can freely do this, to run around and sleep all the healers and ranged DPS for funsies (I do tactfully sleep healers when possible to allow my team to secure kills, but many times it's very dangerous as a BLM to get that close)

[Krolja]

Is it possible that they've given up on trying to make objective based maps that require fighting other players because they are a deer in the headlights in terms of balance so they said "Screw it we'll make a MOBA and we won't have to worry about actual player balance!"

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

They really do need to revisit job balancing in PvP before they launch Rival wings. . .

I mean unless you want a light party of healers pocketing a Cruise Chaser around the map wiping out players while an Oppressor slowly trudges to the enemy towers and does its thing, or people intentionally throwing towers to get a Brute Justice, then just throwing full support behind that. . .

[Krolja]

While we're on the subject of possibly getting a dev response to this. How can we make melee fun to play in the Feast? I am a melee main in PvE but I absolutely ABHOR melee in PvP. Lose so many casts to people just moonwalking through my character because ping plays such a massive part of PvP. I already have to sit in 30 minute queues and then just to lose because I'm held back by factors I can't control really kill any urge I have to play PvP.

Are the problems with the infrastructure SE is using or is it the gameplay itself that needs reworked? Melee jobs already feel worthless compared to the constantly buffed ranged. How do we change that?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Thing is, melee was good, strong even when they had CC. Stuns especially really went a long way for them, in general and with setting up LBs. Silences were good when facing down enemy healers, and Monk's Pacification REALLY made them a threat then.

Problem is, again, just trying to force fit everything into 9 buttons and sacrificing things that worked and were effective to do it. Taking ccs away from melee (then only giving them back to certain ones) has really done a disservice to PvP balancing overall.

[Krolja]

Fair points. Do you think melee need some way to help stick to targets? I feel like they really need some sort of slow to help with some of the kiting issues that are used so often. Lots of games the enemy team will get a kill, and then the team will just run kiting for the rest of the match. I know it's mostly because of the flawed medal system, but I still feel like melee are missing something.

Not sure if hard CC is the answer (e.g. stuns), but I do feel like they need *something*.

[Mirch]

Fair points. Do you think melee need some way to help stick to targets? I feel like they really need some sort of slow to help with some of the kiting issues that are used so often. Lots of games the enemy team will get a kill, and then the team will just run kiting for the rest of the match. I know it's mostly because of the flawed medal system, but I still feel like melee are missing something.

Not sure if hard CC is the answer (e.g. stuns), but I do feel like they need *something*.

play ninja, it has more CC than a whole party all together. No anyway, again, team work, tanks exist for a reason, to compensate what melees lack and to support both dps and healer.