Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[WhiteArchmage]

You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Short answer: The Imperials and Corrupt Brass Blades were trying to kill us, and are on opposite sides of war, were casualties are expected. Haurchefant had been our ally since we first set foot in Coerthas and we personally knew him and his family and had befriended them, plus he died trying to protect us. Wasn't this sort of debated in the "WoL: Mass Murderer" thread?

[Shai]

SNIP

This is a very detailed response and I would expect no less but it doesn't -exactly- get to the heart of my problem.

Yes, I understand (and flippantly commented originally) there is a difference between Ysayle & Thordan VII (the mortal beings) and what they hope to achieve. I understand why Thordan has to go in the context that Thordan VII & Primal Thordan I are presented. The fact that one hopes to conquer the world to usher in peace (not unlike Garlemalde) is enough of a reason to end his tyrannical and hypocritical rulership over Ishgard and the world at large.

I'm more troubled that it's ok for Ysayle to go on summoning Shiva to suit OUR needs beause OUR needs are "righteous" (even though the WoD subsequent saga puts that into question) and Thordan's aren't righteous enough. That it's the "lesser of two evils" feels only like we're admitting summoning primals is sometimes necessary -- even though the modus operandi of the Scions is pretty much: We stop primals from being summoned, and kill any that have been summoned. It's kind of a crappy raison d'etre for an organization if they also have a caveat that reads "unless summoning primals helps us win. Then we have no problem with it."

I guess what I'm getting at -- and it's really no surprise since the narrative is pointing to this anyway -- are we solving a global problem, or simply adding to it? The Allagans war of escalation saw more and more powerful eikons being summoned to be combated by more and more powerful magitek bioweapons. This war of escalation ended poorly for them. It ended poorly for the Warriors of Darkness. I feel like it will end poorly for us and no one really stops to take measure of that. We just keep on doing what we do and hoping we can change the cycle without ever really addressing the cycle that the Ascians seem desperate to perpetuate. Defeating Bahamut by becoming Phoenix. Defeating Ravana & Thordan by becoming Shiva.

Maybe my original question is poorly phrased. I understand why Thordan is a villain and Ysayle isn't. I am maybe playing around too much when I imply they are exactly the same. I think I'm just more offended that the story glosses over why it's ok for Shiva to exist when we need her, but it's not ok for [any other primal] to exist when [any other summoner] needs them.

This game does nothing to stop the cycle and that frustrates me, too. Beastmen feel threatened, so they summon. What do we do? Oh, we just threaten them more. We kill their god and bully them into submission. They certainly won't try that again! The game really needs to pick up the pace on its plotlines involving "curing the tempered" because we already have alluded to the fact that death is not the only solution (though it is the easiest) and some way to stop these cycles to prevent future summoning. The Scions feel very "reactionary" right now and they need to move into "preventative" and "restorative" mode before the servers shut down or I die of old age.

[Shai]

Short answer: The Imperials and Corrupt Brass Blades were trying to kill us, and are on opposite sides of war, were casualties are expected. Haurchefant had been our ally since we first set foot in Coerthas and we personally knew him and his family and had befriended them, plus he died trying to protect us. Wasn't this sort of debated in the "WoL: Mass Murderer" thread?

Probably? I never read that thread and I didn't bring up murder in this one.
I was only answering Sparrow, and agreeing there is a clear double standard there, too.

The problem with the self-defense argument is that not only are we never on trial for our actions
(barring the silly mock trials in Ishgard that were fabricated to remove Scion interference)
but no one ever acknowledges any of these actions in any remorseful way.

They just happen as if it's perfectly fine and dandy to kill a dozen men defending their beliefs.
Yes, war is war and people die -- but people come back from wars broken.
I don't really need a PTSD sub-plot to make it feel realistic, but...

Some small amount of dialogue saying we feel sorry a thousand innocent imperial colonial conscripts have to die so Ala Mhigo can be free would go a long way in portraying us as characters who actually value life and liberty.

[Anonymoose]

I think I'm just more offended that the story glosses over why it's ok for Shiva to exist when we need her, but it's not ok for [any other primal] to exist when [any other summoner] needs them.

If that's where you're focusing, I think we can still work through a few ... caveats? I guess? First we'll need to acknowledge that the people in charge of the scenario in all likelihood just though it'd be cool to have dragon waifu tap into her magical girl and fight out our side in glorious cutscenes. And now that we've acknowledged it, let's set it aside and pretend we didn't.

But Shiva is a unique case thanks to two overlapping factors.

First, her primal isn't essentially an overpowered Elemental with an independent volition that truly believes its a god, perpetually summoned and killing the land and tempering followers and falling into a positive feedback loop of survival and empowerment. Even Ramuh, the "peaceful" primal (for reasons that will be revealed in the future), still exudes a corrupting aura and encourages the divide between the sylphs and causes the aetherial decay of the land (as far as we know). By contrast, Ysayle uses short bursts of aether to manifest Shiva as a suit of armor and that isn't worn for very long. (Allegedly her ability to do this was by virtue of the Echo but the devs will neither confirm nor deny that Thordan somehow acquired it (perhaps via Elidibus the same way he granted it to the Sahagin elder) so we can only speculate speculate speculate.) We haven't seen many such primals (...yet? Though it seems too convenient of a plot device and would cause catastrophic retroactive villain decay, imho)

Second, Ysayle was using these short-bursts of summoning to follow the Warrior of Light's path: striking at the root causes of conflicts and ending them thereafter. Thordan might have been another primal-suit under mortal control, but he was going to antagonize and escalate global conflict. In the big picture, you could weigh the damage done by Shiva's summoning against the damage prevented and (by virtue of it being a short-burst summoning, under mortal command, wielded to uproot conflict) it would be a worthwhile purchase.

Perhaps the main reason it seems so hypocritical is because it's literally the only example and also serves as an exception.

This game does nothing to stop the cycle and that frustrates me, too. Beastmen feel threatened, so they summon. What do we do? Oh, we just threaten them more. We kill their god and bully them into submission. They certainly won't try that again!

This is ostensibly on track to go sideways in the future. Urianger threw a wrench into what the Warriors of Darkness were actually assigned to accomplish: defeating extremely powerful incarnations of the beast tribes' gods so utterly that it broke the tribes' faith in them and forced them to look to a "new god".

[Shai]

If that's where you're focusing, I think we can still work through a few ... caveats? I guess? First we'll need to acknowledge that the people in charge of the scenario in all likelihood just though it'd be cool have have dragon waifu tap into her magical girl and fight out our side in glorious cutscenes. And now that we've acknowledged it, let's set it aside and pretend we didn't.

Oh, believe me I understand this. As I said, Ysayle has been my favorite character for years, and her transformations gave me raging nerd-erections (TMI?) cause Shiva has been my favorite summon for even longer than Ysayle has probably been "alive" in-game. Her sacrifice made me literally cry when Haurchefant's just made me go "Oh that's just mean. I'll get you for this, you dirty knights." Allying with her was by far the absolute best part of HW story for me, so I feel conflicted whining about the details. Unfortuantely "wouldn't it be cool if...?" is such a crappy way to formulate a coherent plot. I think we can all agree to that. So yes, I set that obvious reason aside when analyzing character choices within the context of the game and its plot itself.

[Shai]

(Allegedly her ability to do this was by virtue of the Echo but the devs will neither confirm nor deny that Thordan somehow acquired it (perhaps via Elidibus the same way he granted it to the Sahagin elder) so we can only speculate speculate speculate.)

I speculate speculate speculate that Zodiark has a similar "blessing" as Hydaelyn that has been neither denied or confirmed yet.Probably weaker since Zodiark is sealed (or shattered or whatever technobabble state he is in) and Hydaelyn is not, but something the Ascians can bestow in-part to their followers. That's just my assumption, though -- since the most we ever get out of NPCs is "something like the Echo" and not an actual Echo.

To everything else you said - Yeah, I guess so. The other example I mentioned briefly and you [perhaps] overlooked is Louisoix. Though technically not a Scion ... and we maybe were never clear on his personal take on summoning itself, I feel we can extrapolate from his students that he thought the practice was bad and taught them to be against it. Still it didn't stop him from relying on it to "win" against a supremely powerful primal of destruction. Using your same analysis of Ysayle, though, Louisoix was the same -- and went so far as to keep Phoenix a secret so its existence wouldn't rally Eorzea to summon him in the future to fight their battles. His intent was a limited-time human-guided use and he also didn't use aether gathered from crystals but his (deus ex machina) Staff of Infinite McGuffins. So I suppose I have to accept your analysis is correct.

I'm glad we had this talk. =)

[Cilia]

Louisoix's summoning was different from the typical sort we see. It was only a partial summoning, and the aether from it was going to be returned to the land by cancelling the summoning at the last moment at the cost of Louisoix's life. No matter how it turned out, he wasn't going home.

The DRK 30 - 50 and 60 - 70 questlines deal with the Warrior of Light's PTSD and moral fallout of their choices.

[Shai]

The DRK 30 - 50 and 60 - 70 questlines deal with the Warrior of Light's PTSD and moral fallout of their choices.

DRK is one of the few storylines I haven't explored to its completion (well pre-SB). I think I only made it to 51.
BLM is the other job I never quite finished to 60 (yet).

PS: I have 2 characters before people go fact checking my status to invalidate my claims for no reason.

[Anonymoose]

I speculate speculate speculate that Zodiark has a similar "blessing" as Hydaelyn that has been neither denied or confirmed yet. Probably weaker since Zodiark is sealed (or shattered or whatever technobabble state he is in) and Hydaelyn is not, but something the Ascians can bestow in-part to their followers.

It's sound speculation. Elidibus and Lahabrea imply that they know much of the Echo, and Lahabrea's use of it has an ostensibly darker aura than ours. There's a singular counter-example that I can recall off the top of my head: Toto-Rak. Lahabrea here referred to the Echo has an "irksome anomaly", but I believe this may have been poor choice of words that slipped into the game through the final rush and was unable to be corrected due to the vocal track. Lahabrea is actually referring to powers in addition to the Echo - the powers of the Warrior of Light, or Champion. There's a similarly awkward translation later, when Lahabrea says the "gate to the void" is open, but it's actually the gate to the interdimensional rift (i.e. the Chrysalis) rather than the void (the Thirteenth). Also, when your power causes Lahabrea and Igeyorhm to be divided back out of Ascian Prime, Lahabrea curses you for re-establishing "Hydaelyn's walls" from which he was liberated by Zodiark - perhaps connecting to this hypthetical "Dark Echo".

It might not be weaker, though. Isolated though He is, Zodiark was stronger than Hydaelyn at the time of the division. According to Her, it's why She exiled him, and She's only grown weaker since. As Lahabrea hinted in the Praetorium, His return could "burn her out like a parasite".

This is also assuming that the Echo is addition rather than the subtraction. It's also possible that the Echo is a "plug-in" that disables inherent boundaries in the souls of mortals, thus removing limitations. This would make the source less relevant than how an individual subject responds to the augmentations.

The other example I mentioned briefly and you [perhaps] overlooked is Louisoix

As far as Lou knew, he just didn't have a choice. A direct impact from Dalamud was guaranteed annihilation, whereas summoning twelve deities at once was "merely" catastrophically bad. You can tell he didn't want to do it, and his hesitation (holding back, limiting it to harnessing their power before they could actually manifest) is part of why Bahamut was able to break through it. Have you ever seen one of those hostage scenes where the sniper shoots the hostage in a (hopefully) non-fatal location to prevent the hostage-taker from putting one in their head? I see it like that.

[Draginhikari]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

One of the major characteristics of a crap-sack world is generally the incompetence of states or governments to deal with threats or issues that occur around them. Frankly the City-States do a piss poor job of enforcing anything outside of the borders of their cities as a result life outside of the cities tends to rough, dangerous, and difficult to monitor. Death from monsters and bandit groups is so rampant that unless something major was involved it falls completely under the radar and is just accepted by most people as a part of life. The only time it can make a real impact is when the death directly impacts people. Specifically, those that you know, friends, family, or direct allies. This doesn't just go for the Warrior of Light but most in Eorzea. We are not able to see the impact of every life we take as there is just simply no way to do that. The DRK storyline tires to address this but it's about the best that can be done.

As for the Shiva and Thordan differences, I image it comes down mostly what the Warrior of Light could consider a 'moral gray' area. Though the primals generally need to be eliminated generally because they are a threat to those around them. Ysayle during Heavensward had not used the transformation in the way we've encountered with other primals so it was probably just a matter of letting the issue slide in order to address the problem in front of them. If Ysayle had survived the whole affair it probably would have had to be addressed but she didn't so the problem sort of resolved itself. Thordan however had very clear intentions in mind and frankly in that case the Warrior of Light could consider a primal dictator king to be an immediate cause for concern. Not only was Thordan himself a threat but he was after the Triad as well. If Thordan had been allowed to absorb the aether of those three eikons as well. He may have been impossible to stop even for the Warrior of Light. He as an immediate and direct threat compared to Shiva.