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  1. #41
    Player
    Jollyy5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Raul Prower
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    I feel the SCH skills themselves are fine as they are for the most part, but the insane mana cost of some of the skills such as Adlo and Succor, is just too much, mostly in AoE situations.

    I'm at item level of 308 if I recall correctly and managed to reach high DPS briefly thanks to Miasma II spam, but darn if it wasn't taxing on mana, even with Lucid Dreaming, Aetherflow and Energy Drain, leaving me with very few options to keep the tank alive.

    As far as I'm aware, SE doesn't much care about balancing classes according to data from dungeons, but rather from raids such as Omega Savage, which would be fine otherwise if we didn't spend roughly 70% of playtime in dungeons.

    Also..
    Quote Originally Posted by plasmacutter View Post
    Words...
    If they were to convert some healing spells into straight up shields and vice versa, I'd rather have Succor for shields and Indom as a heal. I have time to apply shields, and they'd linger for a good while, but if people are dying I need them healed NOW.
    (1)
    Last edited by Jollyy5; 09-14-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  2. #42
    Player
    Teraluna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    416
    Character
    Tera Luna
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jollyy5 View Post
    I feel the SCH skills themselves are fine as they are for the most part, but the insane mana cost of some of the skills such as Adlo and Succor, is just too much, mostly in AoE situations.

    I'm at item level of 308 if I recall correctly and managed to reach high DPS briefly thanks to Miasma II spam, but darn if it wasn't taxing on mana, even with Lucid Dreaming, Aetherflow and Energy Drain, leaving me with very few options to keep the tank alive.

    As far as I'm aware, SE doesn't much care about balancing classes according to data from dungeons, but rather from raids such as Omega Savage, which would be fine otherwise if we didn't spend roughly 70% of playtime in dungeons.

    Also..


    If they were to convert some healing spells into straight up shields and vice versa, I'd rather have Succor for shields and Indom as a heal. I have time to apply shields, and they'd linger for a good while, but if people are dying I need them healed NOW.
    I politely suggest when judging a skill we should look at all the elements. So for things like Adlo and Succor this includes time, effect and cost.
    Based on this I'd say that these are not fine.
    It's just another way of viewing things, but I think it's important to give the first line verdict based on all aspects
    (1)
    Last edited by Teraluna; 09-14-2017 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #43
    Player
    technole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,007
    Character
    Thea Sitori
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Well, if you want to look at all the elements, where are you "spamming" Succor in a dungeon? Cause there isn't a single place that should be happening. You should be using Indom for quick AoE heal and because it's Aetherflow to build the fairy gauge between pulls. Even pre-70 before the gauge, this should be standard practice. Before Indom, you'd use Succor every now and then for AoE along with Whispering Dawn but it's cost is way less at those levels to compensate not having Indom.

    Compare to say the savage fight where Succor is used the most, around 30-50x in O4 savage, Neo ExDeath. But that's nearly a 13 minute fight and lots of Aetherflow uses and Lucid to keep MP going. You aren't spamming it there either, and you also use Indom quite a bit for quick-ups. For Almagest DoT you are assisting the regen healer to mitigate the first hits and then re-apply to help as-needed for mechanics like delta attacks and flares. For Neverwhere and last phase, you help the regen healer every few GCDs as-needed. So they don't run out of MP using Cure III or Helios on their own.

    Ideally Scholar should be using its Aetherflow skills aggressively otherwise you are not building the fairy gauge which is the bread-and-butter regen for the biggest level 70 dungeon pulls you can do in this game. If you keep manual healing too much you basically are locking out the best tools of your kit, and that is faster MP regeneration with Quickened Aetherflow and use of fairy tether.

    You should never spam Adlo either, in-fact you should never be casting it back-to-back on the same target. As the 2nd Adlo can apply before the first shield even applies, so you practically wasted the cost. It should be used sporadically, and in a dungeon setting in a sense it's a supplemental tank cooldown on-top of Whispering Dawn, force embrace, and/or Lustrate. It should not be a spam heal.
    (1)
    Last edited by technole; 09-15-2017 at 12:43 AM.

  4. #44
    Player
    Jollyy5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Raul Prower
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Teraluna View Post
    ...
    I essentially said that Adlo/Succor would be fine if they weren't so expensive, didn't I? Unless that's not what you meant.

    Anyway, I can believe that Scholars are fine in raids, I can't recall having any serious problems in Susano/Lakshmi EX, but I'd like to see some quality of life improvements in my day to day stuff such as dungeons, where I'd love nothing more than having the tank pulling half the dungeon while being able to support such shenanigans as a Scholar without it being too stressful and unreliable.

    *cough* WHM Holy stunlock/Assize/Benediction/Thin Air *cough*
    (0)

  5. #45
    Player
    Riyshn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    211
    Character
    Riyshn'a Nhise
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by technole View Post
    Deployment is the best healer progression skill. SCH can recover from a raid spaghetti mess just because of that skill.
    Eh... *waggles hand*

    Outside of a Critlo (unreliable), it's only 300p and locked behind a 90s CD. Compare to Noct.Asp.Helios, which is 258.75p on the GCD, with a 172.5p party heal attached. Only 41.25p less shielding, and available for every mechanic. Not saying that Deployment Tactics isn't a great skill, but calling it "the best healer progression skill" when Noct.AST exists in it's current form feels off, especially when progression is where SCH has the most trouble, with trying to plan it's CDs/Aetherflows around an unknown fight.
    (5)
    Last edited by Riyshn; 09-15-2017 at 03:51 AM.

  6. #46
    Player
    Teraluna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    416
    Character
    Tera Luna
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jollyy5 View Post
    I essentially said that Adlo/Succor would be fine if they weren't so expensive, didn't I? Unless that's not what you meant.

    Anyway, I can believe that Scholars are fine in raids, I can't recall having any serious problems in Susano/Lakshmi EX, but I'd like to see some quality of life improvements in my day to day stuff such as dungeons, where I'd love nothing more than having the tank pulling half the dungeon while being able to support such shenanigans as a Scholar without it being too stressful and unreliable.

    *cough* WHM Holy stunlock/Assize/Benediction/Thin Air *cough*
    Since I'm currently maining a whm - I like your cough
    (0)

  7. #47
    Player
    Teraluna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    416
    Character
    Tera Luna
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Riyshn View Post
    Eh... *waggles hand*

    Outside of a Critlo (unreliable), it's only 300p and locked behind a 90s CD. Compare to Noct.Asp.Helios, which is 258.75p on the GCD, with a 172.5p party heal attached. Only 41.25p less shielding, and available for every mechanic. Not saying that Deployment Tactics isn't a great skill, but calling it "the best healer progression skill" when Noct.AST exists in it's current form feels off, especially when progression is where SCH has the most trouble, with trying to plan it's CDs/Aetherflows around an unknown fight.
    And this is the problem of course.
    Because they made Ast a sort of magpie build, mimicking or direct copying existing skills, there is this continual comparison.
    As raids only need two of the three, then one will always be seen to be at the back of the queue.
    Said it before, Ast should have been a substantially different kind of healer - maybe a sword and board melee type, to really get away from the original two.
    (0)
    Last edited by Teraluna; 09-15-2017 at 05:06 AM.

  8. #48
    Player
    technole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,007
    Character
    Thea Sitori
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Scholar benefits from the amount of free healing available in-progression, it's just merely aligning those cool downs where they can best be-used on-cooldown to get most uses while also supplementing the other healer. When you think of about the thought of getting perhaps nine whispering dawns in a fight or more, and how many deployments possible, at little cost. Fey Illumination can easily be seen as an double healer ilvl boost just like Largesse is for each healer for mechanical heals. You'd be surprised how much you can recover when things go south just because Eos's heavy lifting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teraluna View Post
    And this is the problem of course.
    Because they made Ast a sort of magpie build, mimicking or direct copying existing skills, there is this continual comparison.
    As raids only need two of the three, then one will always be seen to be at the back of the queue.
    Incorrect. As I said before several times, all three healers have the most relatively balanced clear rates in savage, since the introduction of Astrologian. It hasn't been this good, ever.

    All three healers were represented in the first three O4S clears. So saying one job is at the back of the bus in-progression is a gross mistatement.
    (1)
    Last edited by technole; 09-15-2017 at 06:56 AM.

  9. #49
    Player
    Risvertasashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,697
    Character
    Makani Risvertasashi
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by technole View Post
    Incorrect. As I said before several times, all three healers have the most relatively balanced clear rates in savage, since the introduction of Astrologian. It hasn't been this good, ever.

    All three healers were represented in the first three O4S clears. So saying one job is at the back of the bus in-progression is a gross mistatement.
    And SE will need to tread very carefully to maintain this, as farming groups are already leaning towards an AST+SCH preference once more. (I'm OK with all 3 healers have representation in progression... just I don't want that to disappear).
    (0)

  10. #50
    Player
    Miles_Maelstrom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Idylshire
    Posts
    295
    Character
    Miles Maelstrom
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by technole View Post
    Incorrect. As I said before several times, all three healers have the most relatively balanced clear rates in savage, since the introduction of Astrologian. It hasn't been this good, ever.

    All three healers were represented in the first three O4S clears. So saying one job is at the back of the bus in-progression is a gross mistatement.
    It's not that they can't do it. It's that the group with the scholar probably struggled a lot more. With a scholar in the group you need that perfect run to get some bosses during progression. It's like this boss's mechanics require x amount of healing if done right. And when in progression not optimally geared yet, scholar can do x+2% and the other two can do x+15% . It's just a lot more wiggle room. Especially when in progression where mistakes can happen that extra possible healing matters. It's a QOL changes needed more than anything. Cause while we can do it it's just harder for us and our groups.
    (3)

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