Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[KokonoeAiyoko]

What does all that mean? Parsers are fine how they are now. If you if you aren't trying to force things on others, then everything is fine. If a good player wants to get better after being told they are low DPS, then they'll seek out the information, even if parsers can't be shown in-game. If a bad player is called out, even an in-game parser won't make them perform better. They'll just lie or make excuses, even with definitive proof in their face.

Let's be real. The people who would ridicule someone in Braylox Longstop or Sastasha over their DPS alone would be an absolute minority. No one is forcing anyone to do anything by putting the feature into the game itself. I personally would like to keep track of my DPS and others DPS in-game without having to use external tools.

I'm a Tank and Healer main, due to the way this game is by design for these roles, everything you do is practically in the spotlight. If you don't heal correctly, the DPS automatically know, or the Tank knows. If the Tank doesn't keep aggro, the DPS or Healer automatically knows (I mean there's even a meter that DPS and Healers can see just to check in how good the Tank is keeping aggro).

If I fail to Esuna someone and it leads to their death, people know where to look. If I fail to tank swap at a certain moment and it leads to the other Tank's death, people know where to look.

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

If as Tank or Healer people can see my mistakes right in the open the second I make them, is it really that unreasonable we have a way to encourage and help the DPS get better so that everyone (including the DPS who may not realize it) can defeat the dungeon or raid?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

lol, nice ad hominem, I'll humor you. You have no idea how I play the game. I haven't even got into endgame Savage yet and no one has complained about my lack of doing rotations and in fact, people commend me because I actually seem to know what I'm doing, without a parser! Gasp unbelievable I know.

This isn't an argument. I've had Monks with sub-600 DPS and a Black Mage who couldn't break 500 yet thought they were good. The standards people have various substantially, and many players confuse healer or tank damage with what the actual DPS are doing. Regardless, no one really cares what you do in a dungeon. It's faceroll content you barely require a pulse for unless the tank mass pulls. Where people start to care is endgame content. Zurvan EX exposed the staggering amount of players who can't execute a basic opener. Skipping Soar should have been a cakewalk yet I went into parties where five or even six DPS couldn't manage to skip Demon's Claw, nevermind Soar. Parses wouldn't change anything except exposing lazy players who are content with allowing others to carry them. Toxic people will be toxic with or without the tool. They simply use ACT and kick bad players without saying a word. Take a look at PF. You see all those "bad DPS will be kicked," "Replacing people after multiple wipes." They all have parses going.

An official parse would help those who want to improve see where things aren't clicking without relying on third party programs. Provided SE enforced their policies, harassment would be handled the same way it is now.

[AlphaSonic]

My standards for DPS in dungeon is that as long as they spam AoEs when 3+ mobs in trash pulls I'm happy. (Yes my standards are really low)

[Snow_Princess]

Let's be real. The people who would ridicule someone in Braylox Longstop or Sastasha over their DPS alone would be an absolute minority. No one is forcing anyone to do anything by putting the feature into the game itself. I personally would like to keep track of my DPSand others DPS in-game without having to use external tools.

I'm a Tank and Healer main, due to the way this game is by design for these roles, everything you do is practically in the spotlight. If you don't heal correctly, the DPS automatically know, or the Tank knows. If the Tank doesn't keep aggro, the DPS or Healer automatically knows (I mean there's even a meter that DPS and Healers can see just to check in how good the Tank is keeping aggro).

If I fail to Esuna someone and it leads to their death, people know where to look. If I fail to tank swap at a certain moment and it leads to the other Tank's death, people know where to look.

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

If as Tank or Healer people can see my mistakes right in the open the second I make them, is it really that unreasonable we have a way to encourage and help the DPS get better so that everyone (including the DPS who may not realize it) can defeat the dungeon or raid?

LOL! I just got called out for impulse drive spam in Sastasha. He tried to say doing 4 CDs vorpal combo is 60 potency more, so I said that is nice, and what lives longer then 2-3 GCDs here? .. Also I did not know how 20=60 =/

My standards for DPS in dungeon is that as long as they spam AoEs when 3+ mobs in trash pulls I'm happy. (Yes my standards are really low)

Not many have aoe in Sastasha :3 but ya I get the idea, use your aoes when you are at the level to use them

1. Those threads referred to casual content / drastic indications of poor play. Most players will not know that an early Geirskogul rotation is ideal for x fight under y circumstances, etc., etc., let alone be on the look out for every oGCD sync and CD match-up.
2. What makes a game any more or less "built for a parser". If anything, XIV is built for a parser more most, in that it actually has dedicated datalogs by which to parse, rather than requiring network interception. WoW and others have this as well, but not all games that have parsers can make do with non-interceptive parsing.
3. How do you intend to improve "as a group", when you have little idea how each person is faring? If you mean this in terms of a strategy meeting over relative potency spreadsheets, then I suppose this is possible. If you're talking "huddle up, and let's talk this out so we can all have our heads in the game", you'd be actively hampering that goal by neglecting objective performance metrics, likely irritating those who are already performing maximally, and would find yourself much less able to spot the problems as they occur.

This, i am observant but not that observant. It is hard to do when you are trying to play optimally yourself, trying to spot little mistakes, i/e, spotting a 1.6k rotation vs 3.2k is easy, spotting a 4.0k vs 3.2k not so much.

This isn't an argument. I've had Monks with sub-600 DPS and a Black Mage who couldn't break 500 yet thought they were good. The standards people have various substantially, and many players confuse healer or tank damage with what the actual DPS are doing. Regardless, no one really cares what you do in a dungeon. It's faceroll content you barely require a pulse for unless the tank mass pulls. Where people start to care is endgame content. Zurvan EX exposed the staggering amount of players who can't execute a basic opener. Skipping Soar should have been a cakewalk yet I went into parties where five or even six DPS couldn't manage to skip Demon's Claw, nevermind Soar. Parses wouldn't change anything except exposing lazy players who are content with allowing others to carry them. Toxic people will be toxic with or without the tool. They simply use ACT and kick bad players without saying a word. Take a look at PF. You see all those "bad DPS will be kicked," "Replacing people after multiple wipes." They all have parses going.

An official parse would help those who want to improve see where things aren't clicking without relying on third party programs. Provided SE enforced their policies, harassment would be handled the same way it is now.

Yup, the comments to AphraelAmarantha, if we assume rdm, prob where impressed they saw no hardcasting XD

[Selova]

snip

Wrong again. SE has no issues with people using parsers like ACT as long as they don't use it to grief others and only use it as a personal tool to gauge how you are performing. Many FC's that progress in savage raiding and even world first groups all use them. As for your last point you would be correct, however once you've nailed the mechanics of a given encounter if you are unable to perform at a decently high level, you won't get past enrage timers, That's where parsers come in handy and why people use them to see what went wrong on a encounter and how they, the player can fix it.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

So let me just sum everything. People sucks, with or without help/tools. Is that really a surprise?

Why would anyone be so uptight about a practically, by definition, leveling dungeons.
Don't have time then don't do it. It's the right/only place for people to enjoy the game and and sip drinks.
There is expert and endgame raids to be competitive. People will learn everything on their own pace,
just relax. They will see how unfit they are when they get to it. Under level 70 is not something you force on.

Edit: And I'm glad OP made the thread. SE will never put a single parser/dps meter as long threads like this exists.

[SaitoHikari]

Doesn't seem reactive to me since it's in the ToS. Imo, all parser users should get permabanned on a first offense, no exceptions.

"Let's ban the entire raiding community for using a parser in their raiding videos!"

Do you know how much of a PR disaster that would be? FFXIV already gets enough flak as is from mainstream gaming websites for being a themepark MMO with a predictable release cycle and low difficulty outside of Savage raids. You want the devs to chase a ton of potential new customers away by shutting out the portion of the community that's FAR more likely to engage in free advertising of the game via word of mouth?

This is exactly what I mean when I say I fear the balance of community power is starting to veer hard towards 'casual', and the game's going to be tremendously hurt because of it. Because of hardliners like you that only care about what you yourself wants, rather than considering the long term impacts it'll have on the game community. And plus, looking over your lodestone info AND forum join date, it's clear you only started playing with SB release. I don't think you even know how this community really works yet.

If you think SE isn't aware that all the top raiders use parsers, you got another thing coming to you. This is exactly why there's a 'don't ask/don't tell/don't be a jackass' policy regarding parsers. Hell, a good majority of the people invited to the pre-SB release media tour were known parsing users.

Plus, you keep talking about datamining. I don't think you know what that actually means. Hint: There's a chat tab labeled 'Battle'. All parsing does is read data from that chat tab. If that's considered datamining, then reading the freaking skill tooltips is datamining too.

---

One could argue that an official parser might actually even help in terms of actual enforcement. Right now, there's really no way for SE to tell if someone's parsing (and kicked someone because of it) unless they outright flatly admit it in chat. With an official one, it removes all shadow of a doubt that the player was kicked due to a toxic asshole due to parse results. On the other hand, the kicked player would also know exactly why they were kicked too.

I'd say an official parser would also really, really cut down on the 'DPS HEALURZZZ' threads tremendously, because it'd result in an actual shifting of responsibility to the DPS. People know I openly parse due to mentioning it numerous times on the forum. Post SB, I no longer give a damn whether the healers DPS or not in freaking EX roulette runs, because typically the amount of damage that healers are capable of contributing is now far less relative to the rest of the party compared to HW and before. Having a tank die because of the 'BALLS TO THE WALL DPS HEALER MENTALITY' is a far greater DPS loss than anything else in the game.

Admittedly though, an official parser won't ever exist, though. And it's not because of how the NA community treats parses, believe it or not. You can blame a certain Japanese raiding group for that. Let me tell you guys a story, of what happened approximately 2 years ago.

Within the Japanese community, SE had an official community streamer on Japan's equivalent of YouTube (NicoNico) known as Koike. She once streamed herself putting up a party finder for one of the Coil raids. Lo and behold, about 6 members of one of Japan's top raiding groups at the time joined in to troll her. They proceeded to launch sexist remarks at her, deliberately sabotaged the run, and threw in mentions of her parsing results on top of that. She cried on-stream. In GLORIOUS revenge, the Japanese community responded by essentially doxxing the entire FC, and created an army of naked Roegadyn alts to parade in front of their FC house in a massive protest (100% serious - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOkhhTUjJi0). The group changed their names in an attempt to hide, but the Japanese community manager at the time decided they should be suspended. Last I heard, they're unbanned now, but they've been heavily monitored since.

Now, one could easily argue that parsers also had minimal impact on the actual incident, but it was a factor that contributed to major PR shaming for the game at the time, and that's all SE cares about. The JP community tends to take the public image of the game far, FAR more seriously than we do.

[RichardButte]

Sorry but I disagree with you. Parsing has always been a cancer in MMOs and it gives players the excuse to be toxic jerks and wave their e-peens around as if it mattered. Knowing your mechanics imo is far better than trying to do high dps. If you are dead, then you aren't doing any dps.

I'd be 100% right there with you if not for the fact that this game has DPS checks in all of its raid encounters (unless there are some bosses that don't have enrages, but my static never let those go on long enough to happen).

Is it any wonder that so many DPS players hit max level and can't meet these DPS requirements?

It's like healers and tanks are the only ones who have to play the REAL game (ie keep people alive while dodging mechanics) from 1-cap while DPS wait until raids before the game says, "Okay, NOW we're gonna punish you for not playing to these standards you never realized existed..."

Also, parsers in WoW don't lead to nearly the "calling out" that people seem to think they do (especially not in dungeons). It's actually very rare to get an elitist jerk who's like "LOOK AT MY DEEPS!".

Furthermore, if we're so worried about people being toxic because of parsers, what's the difference between someone being toxic over a parser and someone just being toxic in general, or toxic because of the perceived weakness of a particular class?

So long as there are penalties for being a jerk to people in game, any concern over parser toxicity is completely unwarranted.

[ThunderGodThor]

I just want a parser for PS4. Even if it is just a self-parser, it would help me know if I was improving. I can't think of a single reason that the game shouldn't give you a score at the end of a duty at the very least so you can compare yourself to others of your class/job. Just a thought.

[Zarabeth]

Yet another we want a parser thread. Not going to happen. If you are that concerned about how everyone else is doing, just make some friends and do everything with them. This whole fight is ridiculous. It's a GAME.