[dev1032] [dev1033] The Class System and growth

[Zantetsuken]

NOTE_00: For those of you who find this too long to read and want a quick overview. Here is a quick breakdown of what a FFT style advanced job system would look like, I made a visual reference to it here: http://img535.imageshack.us/i/jobsfftstyle.png/ ( Keep in mind that the above advancement prerequisites are just possibilities given changes to the current system. PLEASE do not become fixated on whether X or Y class should be required to obtain Z advanced Class. It is merely a suggestion of what could be done with the system.)

In going over the issues with the class distinctions as they currently are, I began to look back at older Final Fantasy games and how they addressed the job/class system in a fun and enjoyable way. I remember that one of my favorites was the system in Final Fantasy Tactics, mainly the War of the Lions. The system was exciting and engaging because it provided the player with constant goals to pursue in unlocking and developing new classes.

The real key with the Final Fantasy Tactics job growth system is the fact that each job had a set of prerequisites that you needed to fulfill before you could open it up (with the exception of the squire and chemist)

I think this system would be a fantastic fit for FFXIV, and it would require a few changes to the current system, largely in the reassignment of abilities in order to maximize the uniqueness of the classes

So to start with, lets take a look at the Disciples of War:

Disciples of War:

• Spear/Lance - Dragoon (Lancer)
• Great Axe - Warrior (Marauder)
• 1h Sword and Shield - Soldier (Gladiator)
• Bow - Archer
• Hand to Hand - Monk (Pugilist)
• Dagger - Thief

First off, I would suggest some name changes and tweaks to really make each job unique. Part of this would be removing or severely limiting the healing abilities from many of these jobs and give them a tight focus on their core roles. One of the major problems with the current system is that every class can do pretty much everything, while this is nice for solo play, it makes group play very simple and dull.

The Soldier needs to be a tank and a damned good one. His raw melee ability should be average at best, but he needs to survive like no other. Soldiers need have abilities which allow him to shrug off damage for short bursts of time (5-10 sec) as well as the ability to provoke multiple enemies in a radius or cone and TP attacks that generate hate as well.

The Dragoon should specialize in hard hitting jump attacks and multi-hit skewering abilities, Additionally, Dragoon changes should also build on the current 'lancet' style attacks (like Speed Surge) that leach small amounts of TP, HP, MP etc.. from mobs and share it with the party.

Archers should have skills that focus on crowd control. Their skills should allow group binding, and concentrated volleys for picking off specific targets like spell casters and other ranged attackers.

Monks should be single-target damage dealers with evasive tanking abilities and stunning moves. The endgame spiritual attacks of the Monk should be able to penetrate very high armor and do consistent amounts of damage.

Warriors should change modes while attacking.. switch between weaker AOE attacks that destroy crowds of mobs, or stronger hits that have disabling side-effects which cripple TP, Armor, Strength or Magic Power. The Warrior needs to get stronger as he takes damage.

Thief would be the new class. With rapid-striking blade attacks, this class would specialize in melee DoT skills like 'bleed'. A thief should also have detection skills that reveal and exploit weaknesses in mobs, dealing extra damage to those that are inflicted with enfeebling effects (see current victimize skill for Pugalist)

Disciples of Magic:

• Elemental Magic (Elemental Wands) - Black Mage
• Enhancing/Restoring Magic (Radicals)- Conjurer
• Enfeebling/Draining Magic (Jeweled Wand)- Arcanist (Thaumaturge)
• Healing/Curing Magic (Crook)- White Mage
• Musician (Flute)- Bard

The Disciples of Magic roster is pretty weak as it is. I would break both the Conjurer and Thaumaturge into four separate classes and then I would add a fifth, the Bard.

First is the Black Mage. yep the classic FF job we all know and love. From Blizzard to Thundaja VI, and access elemental weakening spells like Shock, Rasp and Drown, this class should be the most damaging and fragile class in the game.

The Conjurer (or Green Mage in FFXII) fulfills the roll of the buffer. Whether he is casting defensive spells like enThunder, Ice Spikes, barBlizzard, Stoneskin, Faith, Blink, Protect, Shell and Bravery, or DoT spells like Poison, Toxify, Bio and Virus This guy is helping the rest of the group win the attrition war. One of the best jobs to party with, and one of the hardest to solo with.

The Arcanist (also from FFXII) is an Enfeebler specializing in Umbral magic. With Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Bind, Paralyze, Silence, Sap, Blind, Gravity, Confuse, and Absorb as well as incremental magic such as Scourge, he can keep the enemy in a weakened state while the group focuses on the kill. Sacrifice allows him to do some limited healing as well.

The role of the White Mage is curing, healing and restoring. Abilities include not only healing spells like Cure, Regen, Blind-na, Refresh, Erase, and Raise, but also offensive Astral Magic like Dia, Banish and Holy.

The Bard is the new Class. Bards are the jack of all trades, and the master of crowd-control. The job of a bard is to encourage and empower the group while weakening, damaging or sleeping monsters with their songs. This class should play almost exactly like its role in FFXI.

Disciples of the Hand:

• Alchemy - Alchemist
• Leatherworking - Tanner
• Clothcrafting - Weaver
• Metalworking - Blacksmith
• Cooking - Culinarian
• Jeweler - Goldsmith
• Woodworking - Carpenter

I find the crafting jobs to be fantastic as they are now. Perhaps the process of crafting itself could be slightly tweaked, but I think this is the bright spot in FFXIV.

Disciples of the Land:

• Fishing - Fisher
• Harvesting - Botanist
• Mining - Miner
• Husbandry - Shepherd

The addition of the Shepherd Class would be quite nice. The chocobo raising in FFXI was quite fun and if that concept is built upon further it would make a great addition to the Disciples of the Land.

So after all those changes, what next? Well, those changes above allow for Advanced Classes in the style of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. You raise specific beginner classes to a certain level to unlock advanced classes. For instance, if you wanted to unlock the Sage Class, you might need Black Mage at level 50 with Conjurer and Arcanist both at level 30. Below are some possibilities for advanced Classes using the changes above:

• [Soldier + White Mage + Black Mage] = Red Mage (Rapier & Buckler)
• [Alchemist + Archer] = Musketeer (Guns & Grenades)
• [Archer + Thief] = Sniper (Crossbow)
• [Warrior + Soldier] = Berzerker (Double 1H Axes)
• [Warrior + Arcanist] = Dark Knight (Greatsword)
• [Soldier + White Mage] = Paladin (Long Sword and Tower Shield)
• [Thief + Monk] = Ninja (Katana & Darts)
• [Dragoon + Archer] = Samurai (Great Katana)
• [Musketeer + Thief] = Gambler (Cards & Dice)
• [Thief + Bard] = Dancer (Twin Knives)
• [White Mage + Conjurer + Monk] = Devout (Crosier)
• [Black Mage + Arcanist + Conjurer] = Sage (Spell Book)
• [Shepherd + Bard + Berserker] = Beastmaster (Whip)
• [Arcanist + Beastmaster] = Blue Mage (Tulwar)
• [Arcanist + Conjurer] = Time Mage (Chime Staff)
• [Black Mage + Botanist + Miner] = Geomancer (Bell)
• [Sage + Devout + Time Mage + Geomancer] = Summoner (Evoking Staff)

I welcome all thoughts on this. If you have any comments, please leave them below. I really hope the FFXIV development team consider some of these ideas, and I believe they would give the game opportunity for long-term growth as well as considerable enjoyment for the players.

NOTE_01: Keep in mind that the above advancement prerequisites are just possibilities given changes to the current system. Please do not become too fixated on whether X or Y class should be required to obtain Z advanced Class. It is merely a suggestion of what could be done with the system.

NOTE_02: This suggested change to the system is intended to retain the core premise of the Armory system. That is, a class is determined by the weapon it wields. The FFXIV development team has no plans to change this concept, therefore the system I propose is intended to supplement that vision for the game.

NOTE_03: The current assignment of skills and abilities allows for too much customization, which leads to builds being far to similar. To counter this, skills outside the current class should carry a higher cost in addition to reduced effectiveness. However, advanced classes could grant reduced costs for assigning skills from classes that served as prerequisites.

[Kiroh]

...You do realize that radicals ARE the CON 2 handed weapons right? Staves are THMs 2hander.

Well, Radicals Canes and Crooks are the CON 2 hand weapons, but staves are still THM.

The elemental weapons (the one handed weapons with bit of elemental ore topping them) are Wands.

[Cairdeas]

Actually the Magic Disciplines real "Weapons" are Circle AOE Casting for Conjurer, and Cone AOE Casting for Thaumaturge, all of the tools are just focuses for magical properties and potency.

Also Weapon Classes from the Armoury system are not the same as Jobs from the Job System.

[TzinnFoxeye]

I was a huge fan of Final Fantasy Tactics. Although I can't say I 100% agree with everything you posted here the concept of meeting prerequisites to open up certain classes in FFXIV is interesting. I have a feeling it would not go over well with a lot of people but I wouldn't mind it personally. It would also add more of a reason to level more than just one or two classes (which I think gives people a better understanding of how things work when in a party). Perhaps after you reach the required levels it would open up a quest to obtain the new class like in FFXI. I suppose I am biased towards it all though because I'm such a big Tactics and FFXI fan. Besides, it would make more sense; for example, for someone to summon a powerful monster/demon/god-like-thing (summoner) they would need to be experienced with the use of magic(s).

[Chibino]

i do agree with a similar system that i even posted (linked below)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-Class-System

i personally think classic names should be reserved for advance jobs so we can proudly show off. not making oneclassic name a starting job at all. this way the name and rank would hold value. i also like to see the final fantasy tactics job system that would open access to a similar final fantasy 11 advance job quest line thus increasing the value of the advance job name and class.

Gladiator = Soldier
Marauder = Fighter
Pugilist = Brawler (new to any FF series)
Lancer = Lancer (i think this name is fine for a basic class)
Archer = Archer (this is also fine for basic class)

we know magic types dont have anything more basic then white & black mage other then chemist in FF tactics, but even so i rather see white & black mage as an advance job to increase the value of the name and class


as far as weapon system i like to see a more flexible system but i agree that artifact weapons would favor 1 or 2 classes while non-artifact weapons are more flexible for other classes to use. i might want to use 2-handed sword as a paladin or as a dark knight. but personally i would like to use a range physical attack weapon like guns as a red mage, this way i can assist in damage in between casting with out running up with a sword/shield entering the monster area of effect. but mainly playing the role as a debuffer / buffer / crowd control. if guns was more like fusilier / flintlock / cannoneer where some of the attacks are aimed as status effects rather then straight damage like the archer or ranger. even though ranger might be better with more crowd control effects like movement down, snare & traps then musketeer.


oh i forgot to mention i want my elemental bar spells

[ARoy]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

[Cairdeas]

Mira, the issue is that in XIV they are Weapon Classes, Not Classes like you see in WoW or other games. (Hunter etc)

Gladiator litterally means Sword User in Latin, and in Japanese the same "Sword User". It is not a Paladin, a warrior or a dark knight. But it can be all three if you give it the right skills. As a "Class of Weapons" Gladiator is Swords and all of their uses, both offensive and defensive.

[Llan]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

Hmm...
I do agree that basic classes should have a more efficient way to evolve other then just becoming a stronger version of the first, basic class. However, I must say the idea of anyone being able to equip anything is by far, stupid.

What I would suggest to improve your idea Mira, is that SE could add a 2 Handed Sword or Great Sword evolution to the Gladiators class therefore people would be able to be a Tank or a slow attack speed DMG dealer. (I say slow, because the idea of a bersek class was meant to be for Marauders, am I right?)

Llan Hana.

[Chibino]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

i agree that that there needs to be some flexibility in weapons. 2handed swords should be able to be used by both dark knight, warriors & paladins. maybe adding favor classes there would be a bonus to the class type like:

Favors = +10% dmg & acc
non-Favors = -20% dmg & acc

this would gives a 30% difference, if the base dmg is 50 then a positive bonus would be 55 dmg while a negative bonus would be 40 dmg as it scales up 500 base damage would be 550 vs 400 damage this should be enough difference but still but still prove to be useful. artifact weapons should favor fewer classes then non-artifact weapons.

what should set apart the uniqueness in classes is class only passives and active abilities. in FF 11 each class had few passive traits that grew with level, but not all passives transfered over when the it was sub-job. since FF 14 doesnt have class only traits that grow with rank and some class only lack luster active abilities like FF 11's 2hour abilities. people start to see all classes as the same. by giving classes some class only passives and maybe one 1hr and one 30min abilities people might see how classes can be more unique with out swapping out skills.

[ARoy]

Mira, the issue is that in XIV they are Weapon Classes, Not Classes like you see in WoW or other games. (Hunter etc)

Gladiator litterally means Sword User in Latin, and in Japanese the same "Sword User". It is not a Paladin, a warrior or a dark knight. But it can be all three if you give it the right skills. As a "Class of Weapons" Gladiator is Swords and all of their uses, both offensive and defensive.

Right... My comment was in response to OP's suggestion. As I said, there should be some class definition where a weapon will be more or less beneficial to one particular player; they shouldn't be indistinguishable and deciding your class based on your weapon... is silly... hmm...

It suddenly occurs to me that these jobs we're talking about recently would all make much more sense as not being related to your 'weapon class'. As Cairdeas just said, you learn all swordskills as a gladiator.

However, I must point out that you also learn provoke, cover, and rampart, all of which have nothing to do with swords themselves and instead are more job-related skills.

What if... instead of sword users learning that, they learn base sword skills as per usual. Circle Slash and Onion Cut, maybe the elemental strikes (I say maybe because these become far more useful when the enemies are finally more developed and have not only elemental weaknesses, but the effects of your skills will actually matter as well).

Then you tack on, say, Paladin, and he also learns cure, provoke, rampart, cover, phalanx, etc. Things that will help him do his job and are only available to that job. And these spells (or rather, this particular combination of spells/skills) are only available while you have Paladin tacked on - it can also be tacked on to certain other classes once requirements have been met, but you can't use sword skills unless you are using a sword (and have Gladiator class). And of course you have the option of removing Paladin and tacking on something else.

Ideally such a system would have seperate SP for your weapons and JP for your jobs.

Con/Thm would have to be worked differently. Maybe I should start a thread of my own..?

Then again, I coulda sworn I've seen someone come up with a system just like this around here somewhere...

EDIT: Not being able to equip weapons on one class or another is an unnecessary game mechanic that realistically makes no sense. However, given that a white mage would generally have no reasonable sharpshooting skills makes it sensible to incur a penalty or require a special skill (They practice magic, not shooting people, after all.) And a gun isn't really going to help a white mage do their job much anyway.

Doesn't mean you should take the option away. Remember, some people are playing because they want to have fun. If playing a shooty-priest is how they wanna do it then that's entirely up to them.