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  1. #161
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Varis was shown to care deeply for Regula. He also seemed to show some hesitation when pressed about Zenos' demise. He may have written him off as a monster but the man was still his son and heir. It's possible he did not wish to put down his own son, or simply sent him away on purpose to be of use far away from the throne itself. Or, perhaps, he was sent their deliberately knowing that there was a possibility that he would not return home. Varis didn't send any reinforcements, after all.
    (1)

  2. #162
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Trpimir Ratyasch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    ---
    Debatable. The duo share only one scene together and very little dialogue - they are together briefly when we encounter them at Ok' Zundu. That's it. Regula does seem personally protective of Varis, but whether it works the other way around is unknown - Varis does not speak a single word to Regula on screen. It's rather apparent that Varis trusted and placed great faith in Regula's abilities, but whether or not he personally cared for him... well, that has yet to be shown, childhood friends or not.

    Side note: I agree that it was a shame Regula was killed off. He could have very easily been a bridge to a lasting peace with the Empire, or at least an opportunity to try negotiations that aren't necessarily aggressive. It really is too bad he had to go full General Leo, but... fanservice.

    Varis showed no hesitation in denouncing Zenos, telling Elidibus that for him to mourn his death would be nonsense. He also makes it quite clear that he had no intention of letting Zenos succeed him as Emperor.

    Why did Varis put Zenos into the position he did, knowing who and what he was...? Well, that's the driving question, innit? If we're to go with the most optimistic possibility that I can fathom, he did so in the hopes that governance would mature him into a worthy successor. The worst would be that he was equally interested in Aulus' theories, but did not want to be seen as a crackpot by the Garlean court. As such he gave Zenos Ala Mhigo because he knew it held research he would get Aulus to pursue, and was interested only in the results - Zenos living or dying, and how the populace fared under his rule, was of no concern to him. (As you like to point out, Garlemald has major Roman influence, and the Roman Empire was quite famous for its power politics.) For now, the truth remains unknown.

    Varis did not send reinforcements because we accomplished our goal in Doma - liberating the nation sent Garlemald into a tizzy, and Doman shinobi encouraged other provinces to rebel. The other Legions were too busy dealing with the fallout of Doma's liberation to reinforce Ala Mhigo. (On paper, at least.)
    (1)
    Last edited by Cilia; 07-22-2017 at 06:39 AM.

  3. #163
    Player
    Zohar_Lahar's Avatar
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    Zohar Lahar
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    Jenova
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    This all assumes Varis had much control over Zenos's tenure as Legatus and viceroy. Garlemald's "might makes right" paradigm would suggest Zenos likely earned his place by sheer force, even before his father took the throne. He almost certainly maintained occupation of Doma by virtue of quashing the uprising.
    (1)

  4. #164
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Varis and Regula's friendship is outlined in the lore book and given a lot of attention in-game. Most notably during the Warring Triad storyline and with Regula's final speech. It's also outlined in the lore book that the Garlean flag is seen as a symbol to honour those who fall serving Garlemald. Obviously Zenos did not subscribe to that mentality given that he was killing his own people - and the likes of Nero and Livia apparently didn't either though at that point in the story they were essentially rogue agents anyway. We saw this come into play with Regula's demise, though - his surviving men were clearly in mourning. That they were allowed to leave and return Regula's body is surprisingly respectable for the Warrior of Light and Scions - yet it's a stark contrast to the lack of attempted diplomacy nonetheless. I'm not entirely sure why they tried multiple times to make peace between the Ishgardians and Dravanians only to fail and persist anyway...

    ...only to succeed at ending a bitter war and then promptly turn around and commit to another war that ultimately is less about stopping Garlemald and more about reclaiming lost territory. It's very telling that they don't liberate territory stolen from the Beast Tribes at the hands of the Limsans, though. Here's hoping that something beneficial to Garlemald comes out of Regula's demise - otherwise it's just a waste of a compelling character. Deliberately causing strife in territories outside of Doma and Ala Mhigo is also dubious - when the Garleans did that in Ala Mhigo they were criticised. Though it's always one rule for the Eorzeans/Domans and another for everybody else, it seems.
    (1)
    Last edited by Theodric; 07-22-2017 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #165
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
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    Tristain Archambeau
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    Varis showed no hesitation in denouncing Zenos, telling Elidibus that for him to mourn his death would be nonsense. He also makes it quite clear that he had no intention of letting Zenos succeed him as Emperor.

    Why did Varis put Zenos into the position he did, knowing who and what he was...? Well, that's the driving question, innit? If we're to go with the most optimistic possibility that I can fathom, he did so in the hopes that governance would mature him into a worthy successor. The worst would be that he was equally interested in Aulus' theories, but did not want to be seen as a crackpot by the Garlean court. As such he gave Zenos Ala Mhigo because he knew it held research he would get Aulus to pursue, and was interested only in the results - Zenos living or dying, and how the populace fared under his rule, was of no concern to him. (As you like to point out, Garlemald has major Roman influence, and the Roman Empire was quite famous for its power politics.) For now, the truth remains unknown.

    Varis did not send reinforcements because we accomplished our goal in Doma - liberating the nation sent Garlemald into a tizzy, and Doman shinobi encouraged other provinces to rebel. The other Legions were too busy dealing with the fallout of Doma's liberation to reinforce Ala Mhigo. (On paper, at least.)
    Well, he outright called Zenos a monster. Aulus was dismissed from the imperial court. Zenos became as he did as a result, in part, of the experimentation, which fed his hunger. It is entirely possible that the Emperor was interested in the potential of engendering in Garleans the ability to wield the aether, but Aulus went significantly further than that, and for someone so concerned about the threat primals pose, and who looks with disdain upon the Ascians, there is nothing to indicate he had much of an interest in the way it turned out. I consider it far likelier that he allowed Zenos to rule over Ala Mhigo and Doma because i) he was effective in containing rebellious elements and was ruthless and ii) it is even possible that he (Varis) was only given very limited information, if any, about Aulus's work.

    As for Regula, I am quite happy to assume that their friendship was mutual. What's the reason to assume it was not? This is a particularly bizarre thing to question.

    I think you have a penchant for trying to paint the Emperor and Empire in the worst light, usually through subtle insinuation. Again, I realise that the trajectory of the lore is not particularly satisfying to those who want to see the Empire fall, but thus far SE hasn't really cast the Empire as irredeemably evil, and even Zenos had sympathetic elements to him. Especially when contrasted to Lyse's lacklustre, tepid performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar View Post
    This all assumes Varis had much control over Zenos's tenure as Legatus and viceroy. Garlemald's "might makes right" paradigm would suggest Zenos likely earned his place by sheer force, even before his father took the throne. He almost certainly maintained occupation of Doma by virtue of quashing the uprising.
    Yeah I don't think Varis had full comprehension of what Zenos was up to until after he died, most likely thanks to Elidibus informing him. I also believe Elidibus was more than a little devious here, particularly in how casually he handed over Nidhogg's eyes to Ilberd, and caused a chain reaction which would see Zenos merge with Shinryu.

    One must remember Doma rebelled and did so by attempting to summon an eikon.

    Ala Mhigo was a hotbed for rebellion. So, it is possibly the case that Zenos was tolerated for his effectiveness in keeping this situation from recurring. It's not like Zenos had been there for that long, anyway, when one is reminded of his age.
    (1)
    Last edited by Lauront; 07-22-2017 at 08:10 AM.

  6. #166
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    I just checked, the lore book states outright that Varis and Regula played in the Imperial Palace as boys. Given that they're in their forties as of 3.0 that implies roughly thirty years of friendship. Combined with Regula's words about how Varis spoke up in his defence against those who sought to badmouth him it's clear that the relationship was indeed a strong and stable friendship.
    (1)

  7. #167
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Trpimir Ratyasch
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    It's more to do with the "Show, Don't Tell" principle being violated than disbelieving in Varis' and Regula's friendship. We're never shown this, only told, and I'm not the type to just believe things. I have the same issue with the SAM 60 - 70 line - we're often told the Hingan bakufu is decadent and corrupt, but we never see anything indicating this is the case. The 65 quest has you ostensibly protecting the tairo on his visit to Kugane so he can partake of the local brothels... but even though you fight insurgents in Matsuba Square, which is just a stone's throw away from Sanjo Hanamachi (which houses said brothels), you never even see the tairo.

    Same deal.

    I actually believe dismantling or destroying the Empire would be a really bad idea. Their infrastructure is too integral to many provinces now - doing so would lead to mass chaos. I do think they need major reforms and more sensible leadership, but I've never said the Empire is irredeemable. I've gone out of my way to tell people that multiple times, so claiming that is my goal is rather disingenuous. (Plus I like the mechas. Will the magitek predator ever drop? And will I win it?)

    I also don't buy their excuses. That's all.

    Nine times out of ten Garlemald has been the aggressor. It's very hard to hold diplomatic meetings with people that are actively trying to kill you, and even when they're not don't consider you equals. The one instance this is not the case is the Far Edge of Fate, wherin Ilberd's machinations forced us into an aggressive war with Garlemald. It again violates the "Show, Don't Tell" paradigm, but it's reasonably safe to assume the XIIth would have retaliated for the incident on Baelsar's Wall. We did not cause the strife but had little choice in dealing with it - and it was to liberate the oppressed, not subjugate the innocent. There is nothing wrong with fighting to free people from oppression, save lives, or bring about peace - doing so just to subjugate, kill, and cause strife for its own sake is where the line is drawn and what we never do. Pacifism and diplomacy are nice, but not if they indirectly harm those we wish to protect.

    Citing Limsa breaking their treaty with the kobolds all the time when criticizing Garlemald's expansionist policies is kind of a tu quoque fallacy. Yes, Eorzeans sometimes do wrong (though aside from that one comparatively small incident and the Ul'dahn Revolution fiasco there is nothing in the past century) - but how does that make what Garlemald does right (from anyone's perspective from their own? And doesn't the perspective of others matter since they also live on Hydaelyn)?

    If Varis didn't know what Zenos was up to, then the Frumentarium need to do their jobs better.

    Reiterating:
    -I believe Varis and Regula were friends, but this was never shown or demonstrated - only told to us by various NPCs (and ancillary material).
    -I do not think the Empire is irredeemable, but from most conventional moral standpoints they currently sit comfortable in Lawful Evil. (When unbound by the laws of the real world I lean toward Chaotic Good, so my distaste for them is natural.) Peace through Tyranny!
    -I do not think destroying the Empire is a good idea or want it, since doing so would cause mass chaos and lead to unconscionable loss of life. Heavy reforms are needed. Also, I like their mechas.
    -We can't have diplomatic relations with the Empire if they do not treat us as equals.
    -There is nothing wrong with fighting to liberate, save lives, or bring peace. There is everything wrong with fighting to subjugate, take lives, or cause strife.
    -We did not want to engage the Empire in the war depicted in Stormblood; our hand was forced.
    -Varis needs the Frumentarium to step it up if he is not keeping tabs on his legates.
    -Deflecting questions about Garlemald's morality with something about Eorzea is a tu quoque fallacy. Yes, Eorzeans sometimes do wrong - how does that make what Garlemald does right?

    ... tired. And stuff. Having to work Saturdays after M-F all the time sucks. Plus the internet being dumb and not even giving me a chance at the stupid mecha.
    (5)
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (6.55 - End)
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  8. #168
    Player
    Alleo's Avatar
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    Light Khah
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    If Varis, the leader of an empire, has no idea what his son is up to, then thats just bad leadership. (And often the reason why empires like that will fall) Also him being friends with Regula or not does not really change anything about the empire itself. I mean even the most horrible person in the world can have a friend, which does not change the fact that this person is horrible.

    I am not going to say that Varis is evil reincarnated but if he in any way knew about the experiments and knew about Zenos doing in the countries..well that makes him into a bad person imo. Not necessarily evil but far away from good.

    But all of Cilias words and mine will be for nothing anyway because we just see the empire as it is know and somehow this is bad. (We also often point out that this might change in the future and that the people itself might not be that bad but thats mostly ignored by some to write another personal attack)
    (1)
    Letter from the Producer LIVE Part IX Q&A Summary (10/30/2013)
    Q: Will there be any maintenance fees or other costs for housing, besides the cost of the land and house?
    A: In older MMOs, such as Ultima Online, there was a house maintenance fee you had to pay weekly, but in FFXIV: ARR we decided against this system. Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.

  9. #169
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleo View Post
    But all of Cilias words and mine will be for nothing anyway because we just see the empire as it is know and somehow this is bad. (We also often point out that this might change in the future and that the people itself might not be that bad but thats mostly ignored by some to write another personal attack)
    No?

    I've never said that Garlemald is perfect, I've said it's more nuanced than many here claim it to be - and given that we've reached the point where established lore is being ignored in favour of painting Garlemald and Garleans in the worst possible light then I would agree that there's little more to be said on the matter. Thankfully I can take comfort in the righteous of my cause - I put forward facts and logic, not overly emotional biased arguments that are largely based around flawed concepts of modern day morality being applied to a fictional setting.

    Regula's and Varis' strong friendship isn't an 'opinion' - it's an established fact, both within the lore book and in-game. Would it have been great to see more of it? Certainly - but sometimes reading between the lines is required. If both of them are described as having a strong friendship that spans thirty years then there's absolutely no reason to doubt it just because Varis isn't shown to be hugging Regula on screen.

    As I've said many times before, we'll just have to agree to disagree. What you're pushing is speculation rather than fact.
    (1)

  10. #170
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
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    Tristain Archambeau
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    @alleo: See the Empire "how it is", with a healthy dose of spin, misinterpretation/conjecture and subjective interpretation, sure.

    That said, your opinions don't seem particularly prevalent in the lore development team, so /care.
    (1)
    When the game's story becomes self-aware:


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