Problem: Items are Worthless

[Solipse]

I keep seeing notes about how the dev team is looking for ways to deliver equipment from question, leves and monsters. The problem is, however, that crafted items are already essentially worthless unless they are +2 or +3.

Even +2 items are being devalued faster than you can think.

It was amusing last week watching two crafters drop prices on their Crab Bow +2 trying to outdo the other guy. Both of them started above 10m and ended up down around 2.5m before one of them gave up. Considering the effort involved in synthing something like that, it's sort of silly that items are so worthless. Even Dodore Doublets are down below 5m on Figaro.

The problem is the same problem that plagues any MMO where materials are easy and there is a heavy emphasis on crafting to obtain gear --> If gear does not leave the economy at or near the same rate that gear enters the economy, then there is a run-away deflation effect.

Let me illustrate this problem, step by step:

1) Crafters start hitting max level and creating Crab Bows, occasionally getting +1s.
2) Crafters price the NQ Crab Bows at 1m and the +1 Crab Bows at 6m.
3) Once the market has enough NQ and +1 for sale, the only step up from there is to produce a +2 or +3 crab bow, people start trying.
4) In order to produce one +3 crab bow, 15 NQ Crab Bows and 5 +1 Crab Bows end up being made.
5) Many crafters end up with huge amounts of these NQ/+1 items after attempting +3 Bows, and huge amounts of competition lead toward people dropping the price significantly.
6) Prices for NQ Crab Bows hit 30k (When the price of mats making them is 250k+) and +1 Bows hit 150k.

This ends up with a system where crafters feel that they absolutely must produce a +2 or a +3 bow or it's just not worth crafting at all. The people who do try end up vendoring a large amount of the bows they make due to inventory space and try to offload a couple at a massively underflated price just to try and recoup some of their costs.

In a healthy economy, there would not be too many more Crab Bows for sale than there were archers who wanted to use them. While this is NOT a big deal in the current iteration of the game, going forward when we are making materials from gold, darksteel and the like, for a game with a heavy crafting component to succeed and reward the massive amount of time investment that crafting requires, crafting needs to be worthwhile and provide reward. Being unable to sell anything but one out of two hundred combines is simply not rewarding.

There is no one easy way to solve a problem like this.

However, there are definitely some things that need to be kept in mind, namely, there shouldn't be a penalty around removing gear from the economy. Players are already penalized for playing the game in the form of the fatigue system in place (especially gathering fatigue). There should be a tangible reward around removing gear from the economy.

The best place to put this reward is with the crafters themselves. Here is an example of such a reward ->

If I switch to carpenter and open up my synth menu and stick two, three or more crab bows into my synth box, I can attempt to fuse them together into a higher quality version (perhaps even allow a special version above the +3 rank). Each bow added would add some level of quality depending on the quality level of the bow, and would not allow for touch ups. For instance:

NQ : 75 quality
+1 : 150 quality
+2 : 300 quality
+3 : 600 quality

Now, if I stick 8 NQ Crab Bows into my synth box and hit combine, my total quality for that combination is 400. I roll against a 600 quality synth to see if I HQ. If I succeed, I get a HQ bow. If I fail, I get a NQ bow back.

Above, I mentioned a quality level above +3 obtainable only through this process.

Let's call this "Ancient". IE, using this process and combining hundreds of NQ crab bows, I end up with 8 +3 bows. I put those in the synth box and hit combine. My total quality is now a ridiculous 4800. I succeed in the next level of quality (Let's say that it's not even POSSIBLE to reach this without at least 2400 quality (ie, a full synth of +2 items).

My reward is "Ancient Crab Bow" which is not upgradable any further. All stats of the item would be +20% greater than a +3 crab bow, or whatever is balanced - something that is certainly worth the time, energy and effort.

The added effect of a system like this is that it will remove the ridiculous amount of NQ crap that keeps prices for items in the basement and essentially penalizes people for leveling crafting jobs. Currently, with things the way they are, it is not really possible for crafters to make money unless they spend weeks of time gathering materials for a couple dozen +3 item synths. This is the wrong kind of incentive.

Before long, everyone will be doing that and even the prices for +3 items will be in the proverbial toilet. Adding a system like the above would be fun for crafters in addition to providing an "epic" equipment feel without straying too far from the current system or further encouraging mudflation.

[Aratharn]

OP: Interesting idea, but not sure how practical it is. The biggest problem for crafters is a severe lack of consumers.

The same way people go for +2/+3 now and undercut the NQ's people would be going for the 'Ancient' weapons and severely undercut anything they got that wasn't.

'Ancient' weapons just become the +3... but your idea to use 8 NQ's to even attempt would help some of the flooding~

[Mortikhan]

Hmm 2 crafts @50 and 2 other @40+, probably using a bot?

I wouldn't think so. Gathering classes start handing out end game mats right around 30-35. Solipse probably has Botany, Mining and Fishing to a decent level. Even if he/she doesn't you can find most of what you need for cheap as mats at the wards so you can easily work the wards by buy/craft/sell method. The rest is just looking up difficult synths (4-7 levels higher) with low material needs and crafting for skill ups. Get some decent crafting gear and 4-5 hours a day crafting on your own and you will get there without worry. Time consumption and availability are the main concerns. If you have the time you can easily put a big dent in any craft. All of my craft and gathering classes are 25+ with two at 33+ and I only sit and craft on my own 1-2 days a week.

[Rentahamster]

How about an option to "desynth" or "salvage" a finished item into parts, or even raw materials, with a chance to HQ.

[Peregrine]

This is a lushang quest in disguise. No thanks.

Tighten up the quality to HQ rate conversions. The economy will recoil in horror after its time in excess and deflated prices, but it'll be better for it. Let the crafters pay quality to get quality to make quality instead of lingering on in this culture of trying to make greatness from a mountain of crap.

Ten thousand value meals mashed together don't make a gourmet meal.

[Solipse]

OP: Interesting idea, but not sure how practical it is. The biggest problem for crafters is a severe lack of consumers.

The same way people go for +2/+3 now and undercut the NQ's people would be going for the 'Ancient' weapons and severely undercut anything they got that wasn't.

'Ancient' weapons just become the +3... but your idea to use 8 NQ's to even attempt would help some of the flooding~

The point of this isn't to establish a "new +3", though. You're right in that this is what the endgame would resort to, but you're somewhat missing the dynamics of how this would work in action.

This would completely eliminate NQ and +1 items from being sold too cheaply. Any time they fell below a threshhold, crafters would scoop them up for an easy chance at an HQ item combine. This virtually guarantees a near eternal market for any NQ and +1 items. SOMEONE will buy your item if it's cheap enough to try and make a quick HQ without having to farm individual mats.

The entire thing revolves around the need to remove extraneous noise from the economy. This noise cumulatively drops the bottom out of every single commodity (material/weapon/armor).

That's the basic concept that needs to be addressed. HQ rates can be tweaked to heck and back, but if we're still seeing an excessive influx of items into the economy, the economy will always be flawed and broken. WoW gets around this by allowing items to be disenchanted. FFXIV has no such mechanism.

I wouldn't think so. Gathering classes start handing out end game mats right around 30-35. Solipse probably has Botany, Mining and Fishing to a decent level. Even if he/she doesn't you can find most of what you need for cheap as mats at the wards so you can easily work the wards by buy/craft/sell method. The rest is just looking up difficult synths (4-7 levels higher) with low material needs and crafting for skill ups. Get some decent crafting gear and 4-5 hours a day crafting on your own and you will get there without worry. Time consumption and availability are the main concerns. If you have the time you can easily put a big dent in any craft. All of my craft and gathering classes are 25+ with two at 33+ and I only sit and craft on my own 1-2 days a week.

I actually don't have any gathering professions over 20. I made a ton of gear while the market was still healthy and built up a huge nest egg and bought up HQ and NQ materials.

Really, you don't even need to do that, anymore. There's literally no reason now to do gathering. Materials are so cheap (when I was leveling carpenter, yew logs were 10k a pop - they're under 3k most of the time, now, sometimes under 2k). Once you get your first crafting job to 50, you can literally just make one +3 item every 2 weeks and ride the money from that sale out to buy enough +2/+3 materials to guarantee another +3 item and use the left over to buy more NQ mats to level other jobs. It's very easy to get materials.

[Peregrine]

Dude, all you ever seem to ask for is a venue for common activities to become extraordinary given enough mindless button-pressing. You know you can put more ass on more couch than anyone else out there, and you can ride those bubbles like no other. Because if anyone can make 350 crab bows into 10 ancient crab bows or whatever the hell you just said before the market yet again comes crashing down...it's surely you. I have no doubt of that. Amirite?

How about you try being exceptional and ask for real difficulty instead of a game where the sectors are led by timespamming drones.

You're chicken nuggets, not chicken parmesan.

[Solipse]

[Deleted response to Peregrine - there is valid discussion later in this thread, please keep reading.]

[Peregrine]

I hope you paid whoever you leeched off of to 50, and I hope you wisen up and get to gathering. It's the only way you're going to stay competitive with carpenters and alchemists who have. They're flat-out better than you are, and you can't make up for it for levelling another craft to 50. You thought you could. You thought wrong. You try to propose a system that keeps you relevant to this society. You're a first generation crafter flash in the pan style player. Now you're fading to obscurity because nothing you have is exceptional now that you can't ride any market bubbles.

Propose a sustainable market, not another bubble for you to ride.
Crafters like you are too common to give the keys to weapons that are 20% better than +3s. That's the reality.

[Solipse]

[Deleted response to Peregrine - there is valid discussion later in this thread, please keep reading.]