Thread: Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because Kisai is either a troll or so shockingly arrogant, she cannot even begin to process her concept of how healing works may be wrong. Keep in mind, this is someone decked out in ilvl 180 gear. She hasn't even seen the content she's been prattling on about, much less cleared it.

I think I want to lean towards troll, as I started to have my suspicions when she said 'stoneskin is a skill no one ever uses because the tanks just run off or it falls off in one hit anyway.' Forget level 60 in i180 gear, a level 34 WHM would know that's not right...

Originally Posted by Saraphin

it was talked about in many of the Media Weekend Videos (look up Mister Happy's) and he also discussed it on his stream the first day the Embargo ended. it was a big disappointment.

he discussed that he couldn't get lillies to Proc on someone at Full Health, no matter how much he tried.

Hm, I couldn't find the exact quote but I'll take your word for it. Hopefully that's just a bug that gets fixed before release. Or who knows, maybe it's a feature? Don't think anyone would be surprised by that at this point. This whole lily system was a mistake. A tacked on, tragic mistake. WHM didn't need this. If they so badly wanted us to have a 'gauge' for a mechanic, why not give us a very visible display of how many healers are dead in other Alliances in 24-man content? I'd probably get more use out of that than anything else.

Originally Posted by fantasticm

Hm, I couldn't find the exact quote but I'll take your word for it. Hopefully that's just a bug that gets fixed before release. Or who knows, maybe it's a feature? Don't think anyone would be surprised by that at this point. This whole lily system was a mistake. A tacked on, tragic mistake. WHM didn't need this. If they so badly wanted us to have a 'gauge' for a mechanic, why not give us a very visible display of how many healers are dead in other Alliances in 24-man content? I'd probably get more use out of that than anything else.

i think he said it in his stream. it was one of the two, i was watching his stream and he talked about it a lot. WHM getting #Shafted seems to be what all the Media guys say. Even Merri

It changes when those other healers heal harder more consistantly while bringing even more to the table. Its like do you want this perfectly serviceable rifle or this perfectly serviceable rifle with a scope and larger calibur ammo? They will both get the job done but one is superior to the others.

By this sort of logic, in fighting games players would/should only ever play the statistically strongest character, and all the other characters should just be deleted. They don't, and they aren't.

If they both "get the job done" that's all that really matters. You think every player in this game picks the class that they do because it's the strongest one?

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Are you one of Those Guys who berates fighting-game players who pick the characters that aren't considered to be among the best?

God forbid someone should play a job because they like it, or anything.

As much as I don't mind people playing WHM, this is a pretty poor comparison. Fighting games are competitive 1v1 games - by picking a character that isn't strong you're only potentially hurting yourself. In XIV (and MMOs in general) by picking a job that isn't strong you are affecting 7 other people's chance of killing the boss. The only real connection to the two is that you can use that weak character/job to beat any other character/kill the boss, but you'll be working significantly harder for the same reward.

Since we're bringing up fighting games, though, here's a fitting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

As much as I don't mind people playing WHM, this is a pretty poor comparison. Fighting games are competitive 1v1 games - by picking a character that isn't strong you're only potentially hurting yourself. In XIV (and MMOs in general) by picking a job that isn't strong you are affecting 7 other people's chance of killing the boss.

Eh, not all of them. The example I actually had in mind when I wrote that was Smash Bros., which definitely isn't always 1v1 and is infamous for being picked apart and having its characters placed in "tiers"

If there is content that a class literally cannot complete, I'm sure it will be taken note of and corrected. In the meantime, player ability is going to account for way the hell more regarding whether or not a raid can be completed.

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Eh, not all of them. The example I actually had in mind when I wrote that was Smash Bros., which definitely isn't always 1v1 and is infamous for being picked apart and having its characters placed in "tiers"

If there is content that a class literally cannot complete, I'm sure it will be taken note of and corrected. In the meantime, player ability is going to account for way the hell more regarding whether or not a raid can be completed.

none of this accounts for the fact that the actual problem here is that the 4.0 WHM sounds miserable and unrewarding to play. People, who previously played WHM, through 2.x, through 3.x, will now NOT play WHM through 4.x. For the many and diverse reasons that so many people are going over and over here and elsewhere.

this is a problem for the entire game.


SCH also does not look to be in a good place btw

Originally Posted by Yallaid

If Yoshi-P believes this, WHY did he create Regen, Medica I, Medica II, Asylum, Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Cure III and Assize.

Every one of those skills has a use that would make it preferable to Cure I or Cure II and now I'm asked to decide if one is worth casting instead of so many Cure spells and their potential Lily/Confession procs

The fact that people have stated a few times that they never case Cure I at all, tells me that people are aren't playing it the way it's intended to be played. In other MMORPG games, you get a better spell, it replaces the older one, never to be used again. In FFXIV, you have to use spells of a certain level in content of that level in addition to the core role mechanic.

The RNG aspect of WHM was always something of a dumb thing, and if it was based on playing accurately instead of blindly, it would make healing more interesting. eg, you're in a fight with one boss and a party flattener is coming up. The logical thing to cast is Medica II so it lands right after the boom. But what if one member of the party is going to die, regardless, because they ... maybe aren't as good as they think they are. Having to revive them constantly takes a lot of MP and Cast time. The usual reason for a wipe is because someone made a mistake, and trying to recover from that mistake can't be done.

If a WHM's opening move is to cast regen on the tank followed by Medica II and then DPS'ing for 21 seconds, that WHM is not playing the way Yoshi-P intended, and thus they will not have time to recover from mistakes due to CS.

Remove CS, that mistake recovery window is now instant instead of 5 seconds.

The intended gameplay is "what is the best thing to cast" not "what do I need to keep pressing" like a DPS.

Most of the content before Regen is even available is designed around Cure I/Cure II for WHM. If players are replacing Cure I/Cure II with Regen, then they do not get the freecure, which is like every second or third use.

If you have downtime as a healer, your party is either very good, or there is something else you can do. Casting more heals when none are needed obviously wastes the CD's of those skills, and the MP of skills that consume MP.

As it is, with the DF, there four kinds of parties:

A) The Party of newbies - Where you will have to use everything in the toolbox, and maybe still wipe if it's a party of DPS-Melee's who stand in the tank buster
B) The Party of farmers - Where they will try to speed run the dungeon by making as many mobs hit the tank at once, thus Cure I-Cure II progression is only possible after benediction. Medica II and Regen is too slow to use here when the tank is losing half it's health in every hit. By comparison the bosses are easy.
C) The Party of jerks - Where there is no teamwork, and everyone for themselves. Throw everything out there, regen, medica II, benediction, tetra, assize, asylum, even on trash.
D) The Party of Raiders - Where, if anyone makes a mistake, abandon instance. Not DPS'ing? Kick. Step in an AOE? Kick. Die? Kick. Mostly found in Raid and Primal fights.

All the healing magic designed to be used progressively as it gets more difficult. You can play the vast majority of content with that core Cure I and Cure II mechanic IF you are overgeared, and what I'm hearing on the forum is that is not the way the hardcore raiders want it to play. They want to heal as little as possible. Yoshi-P seems to think healers should heal as much as possible, and the tools given to date send a mixed message of how to do it.

With the Lily system Yoshi-P has bluntly pointed out the correctly way of playing WHM, and if you're not playing it this way, then you've picked the wrong Job and have been playing it incorrectly all this time.

Like in the suggestions for "fixing the lily" system, people don't get why Regen and Medica II HoT's are excluded, because if you're playing WHM as intended, you'd only use the regen players on the Tank or uncleanable debuffs. Otherwise you're taking time away from the Cure I-Cure II mechanic.

The most obvious way to play WHM is simply:
Who is bleeding? Nobody? Can you cast Stoneskin on someone? Can you throw up a DoT?

Tank is bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank is still bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank has lost half it's HP. Cast Cure II
Tank isn't recovering HP fast enough. Cast Cure II, then regen
If the tank is still loosing HP at this point, Benediction and Tetra are the last available options. If you've blown the CD's on them, then you're just going to have to use Cure II spam since you can't stack regen.

DPS is bleeding. Will they survive 5 seconds? If Yes, keep healing the tank
DPS is still bleeding. Cast Cure or Cure II whichever fits their damage

Party member is "poison" debuffed
Did everyone get whacked by the same damaging debuff? Medica II.
Is it just the Tank? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen
Is it just a DPS? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen
Is it you? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen

Medica II is cast to time with party-smashers.
Medica is used when everyone is more than 15% damaged.
Cure III is pretty much useless in 4-man unless everyone is standing in one spot, so this is most useful in 8-man/24-man environments where people are standing in the same place.
Using Medica or Medica II outside of "entire party is damaged" isn't helpful.

99% of the time, the Tank is always bleeding once Stoneskin is dropped. If you are constantly blowing the CD's on everything, then you don't have those tools when you need them. The fact is that in most content everything with a CD is designed to compensate for minimum ilevel. If you're level and item synced, most of this content rarely calls for using everything in the toolbox at every possibility unless you panic heal all the time.

What I'm hearing from the raiders is "don't take my lazy healing away" when they've been the ones accusing WHM's of being lazy by not DPS'ing. So pretty much every complaint about changes to WHM stems from this lazy healing technique of casting only Medica II and Regen on everyone instead of Cure.

You all asked for changes, Yoshi-P delivered. Now everyone has to either adapt, keep playing the way they were playing before, or main a different job.

A lot of dungeons have specific mechanics that were designed to either use Medica II, Regen or Esuna on. Otherwise the debuffs could always be healed through or ignored. If you know the mechanics well enough to avoid getting the debuff, and avoid taking damage in the first place then it does feel like the Healer has little to do. There is rarely anyone outside the party that can be healed during a duty.

Originally Posted by Fynlar

By this sort of logic, in fighting games players would/should only ever play the statistically strongest character, and all the other characters should just be deleted. They don't, and they aren't.

If they both "get the job done" that's all that really matters. You think every player in this game picks the class that they do because it's the strongest one?

So, it's ok for BLMs to only cast freeze right? It kills the mobs eventually, surely that's fine. They should be allowed to pick the weaker option if that's what they want!