Lately tank stance has started to feel more like easy mode

[Yeol]

Tank stance is needed especially if you get matched with players of higher item level. Also needed for tank swap.
On my tank (iL269) I can do one enmity combo then turn off thank stance and not lose hate. While my friend (iL250) has to keep his tank stance longer.

I do turn on tank stance when I have used all of my CDs and treat it as a CD later on.

[Driavna]

But tanking in this game was always easy mode (very true for warriors, they don't even need to worry about DPS/aggro combos), so whats the point? If anything SE should drop the current model and copy Blizzard with active tanking, meaning short CDs with short duration and failing to use CDs at the right time is not only more damage but extra nasty stuff apply to you. Any other solution will make the job even more boring, if for example they reduce enmity to the point where you are force to tank stance + enmity combo.

Anyway, a quick fix will be locking any defensive skill to tank stance, but this is more a thing for PvP than anything else.

[Brannigan]

Isn't that mostly the result inflated enmity generation caused by tanks having 15% to 35% more attack power than was originally intended at HW launch?

The Str meta and the changes to Str and Vit have left tanks outputting more damage (and therefore enmity) than SE originally calculated Vit tanks to output when designing HW.

No. I spent this tier (and the previous two, but whatever) mostly out of tank stance, which came well after the strength changes. It is true that tank enmity is in a weird place, scaling wise - basically, if Heavensward were to continue introducing higher ilvl accessories, tanks would fall closer and closer to DPS in hate generation because VIT only gives .45 AP and the STR on our accessories from materia is static.

However, the lack of tank stance use is more a result of
1) low autoattack damage from bosses
2) powerful enmity tools in the form of retarded (3x) modifiers on tank stance, unchained + tank swap, ninja tools, quelling strikes, etc. all allowing you to gain a large lead at the start and keep it because
3) they haven't used "hate reset" as a mechanic this whole expansion* (and barely in 2.0)
4) tank stance not actually being that powerful in general

Tank stances are only ~25% ehp and a hate modifier (and +hit% but no one fucking gears around tank stance hit caps anyway). For Warriors it allows access to inner beast, which is nice but evidently unnecessary. DRK gets a mediocre heal on Soul Eater. Paladin gets dick (but less of a damage penalty). Generally speaking, not being in a tank stance doesn't really disallow access to your tanking abilities. So, if you can work around the EHP and enmity hit, you're fine. If they really want to make people use tank stance, they need to either lock tools behind it (i.e. Rampart/Sheltron/Sentinel can't be used in Sword Oath, Vengeance can't be used in Deliverance, etc) or massively buff its defensive effect and raise monster damage to match. The problem with that is you'll get a situation where if the tank goes down, someone else immediately gets gibbed, because only tanks can survive monsters.

Finally, if SE balanced around tanks wearing full VIT accessories then they're dumb. Even in 2.0 no one used regular VIT accessories - it was all hybrid melds.

*after writing this I remembered that going in the time warp for alexander resets your hate so that kinda fits.

[Ultimatecalibur]

No. I spent this tier (and the previous two, but whatever) mostly out of tank stance, which came well after the strength changes. It is true that tank enmity is in a weird place, scaling wise - basically, if Heavensward were to continue introducing higher ilvl accessories, tanks would fall closer and closer to DPS in hate generation because VIT only gives .45 AP and the STR on our accessories from materia is static.

The Tank potency numbers vs Dps potency numbers ratio has not changed very much since HW launched, but the Tank expected Attack Power vs Dps expected Attack Power has changed. The relative amount of enmity a tank needs to generate to keep an enemy off a dps has not changed while the relative amount of enmity vit tanks generate has increased.

2) powerful enmity tools in the form of retarded (3x) modifiers on tank stance, unchained + tank swap, ninja tools, quelling strikes, etc. all allowing you to gain a large lead at the start and keep it because

Its a x2 modifier which was reduced by a either a .75 or .8 penalty. This meant that tank stance generated x1.5 to x1.6 times as much as base (outside a stance). Warrior get the effective x3 by stacking Unchained which removed the .75 multiplier which lets them get a pure x2 which combined with Berzerk's x1.5 AP gives an effective x3 enmity over base. Sword Oath deals roughly x1.15 as much damage as base for the Paladin.

Str tank and pentamelded tanks were doing x1.35 and x1.2 times more damage than base meaning that tanks were putting out 84% to 97% of base tank stance enmity while in dps stance. Even after the changes tanks still generate 74% to 85% the original assumed tank stance amount while in dps stance.

Finally, if SE balanced around tanks wearing full VIT accessories then they're dumb. Even in 2.0 no one used regular VIT accessories - it was all hybrid melds.

Which is why the 3.2 Vit and Str changes happened. They were stupid at launch and overestimated things so they buffed Vit and nerfed Str when the problems became far to noticeable to ignore. This hasn't changed what the original enmity meta was supposed to be.

[Mikazuki_Aura]

Its a x2 modifier which was reduced by a either a .75 or .8 penalty. This meant that tank stance generated x1.5 to x1.6 times as much as base (outside a stance). Warrior get the effective x3 by stacking Unchained which removed the .75 multiplier which lets them get a pure x2 which combined with Berzerk's x1.5 AP gives an effective x3 enmity over base. Sword Oath deals roughly x1.15 as much damage as base for the Paladin.

As far as I'm aware, the modifier is actually 2.7x.

Also, enmity is not affected by the damage reduction from the tank stances, and it's actually .75, .80, .85. The Paladin is least affected by damage reduction as its damage is low enough to begin with without further penalties.

Finally, as this 2.7x is after the damage reduction, Unchained Berserk's multiplier is actually 1.5*2.7/0.75 = 5.4x. This insane mod is why it's nearly impossible to lose aggro without a Provoke swap after a warrior uses this to establish aggro.

[Brannigan]

Yeah, they buffed tank stance enmity near the beginning of Heavensward.

Ultimatecalibur, I think you're underselling the devs' data analysis abilities and failing to address the core point. Even if they were to remove attack power from our accessories, leaving us at the supposed*** intended enmity levels, there are enough enmity management tools to make tanking outside of tank stance possible and comfortable. The only non-tank job that can't really control its enmity output is Monk, and you can have a Ninja help them out with that. Enmity as a factor is practically eliminated, because right now the hate lead we have over everyone else is way more than anything given by attack power from right side accessories. This is, of course, for a party that is working together - average Joe Dark Knight or Jimmy Two-Shields might still lose hate to some schmuck who refuses to use Quelling Strikes.

Without enmity problems, the only reason to use tank stance is survival. There's only a few things that really hit hard enough to force you into tank stance, and a lot of them can be worked around. Even stuff like Divine Spear/whatever his tank buster is called combos can be managed by a non-stance DRK or WAR and a healer working together.

The penalties involved in not using a tank stance can be mostly eliminated by teamwork (and without sacrificing almost any resources), so you only gain by doing so.


***though I would contest this since they KNOW that progression tanks were using melds or STR accessories even in 2.x. They had to know that the same thing would happen in Heavensward, especially since most bosses hit the tank for less (relatively) than in 2.x. I think it's more likely that they balance enmity around rather poor players in dungeons in order to facilitate a smoother DF experience.

[Ultimatecalibur]

As far as I'm aware, the modifier is actually 2.7x.

Also, enmity is not affected by the damage reduction from the tank stances, and it's actually .75, .80, .85. The Paladin is least affected by damage reduction as its damage is low enough to begin with without further penalties.

Enmity is damage done times enmity multiplier otherwise Unchained would not change Warrior Enmity generation, and the modifiers in that the post are the modifiers for after the 3.2 changes when the Vit/Str change also happened. Prior to that the Paladin was a .8 penalty while in Shield Oath.

Finally, as this 2.7x is after the damage reduction, Unchained Berserk's multiplier is actually 1.5*2.7/0.75 = 5.4x. This insane mod is why it's nearly impossible to lose aggro without a Provoke swap after a warrior uses this to establish aggro.

Actually it is the relatively small loss in enmity generated outside of tank stance that allows for any lead at the start to be mostly maintained throughout the fight. Warrior pulls are actually unnecessary and both Paladins and Dark Knights can create similar giant leads at the start just not as fast.

A 3000 enmity lead would last over 6 minutes if the gap between tank and dps enmity generation is 20 enmity per gcd in the dps' favor. This lead time shrinks as the gap becomes larger.

Yeah, they buffed tank stance enmity near the beginning of Heavensward.

Looking back the change to x2.7 for all 3 tank stances was actually part of the 3.2 rebalance along with Paladin going from a x.8 penalty to a x.85.

Ultimatecalibur, I think you're underselling the devs' data analysis abilities and failing to address the core point. Even if they were to remove attack power from our accessories, leaving us at the supposed*** intended enmity levels, there are enough enmity management tools to make tanking outside of tank stance possible and comfortable. The only non-tank job that can't really control its enmity output is Monk, and you can have a Ninja help them out with that. Enmity as a factor is practically eliminated, because right now the hate lead we have over everyone else is way more than anything given by attack power from right side accessories. This is, of course, for a party that is working together - average Joe Dark Knight or Jimmy Two-Shields might still lose hate to some schmuck who refuses to use Quelling Strikes.

Not really. Save for Shadewalker (transferring Enmity to a tank which boosts the tank's enmity lead) and Elusive Jump (which halves Dragoon Enmity), all the dps enmity tools do is extend the length of the lead time by a short amount.

Going from a 25% gap to a 12% gap (roughly the difference in the gap for Vit tanks before and after 3.2) between tank/dps enmity generation would turn a 2 min lead into a 4 lead.

***though I would contest this since they KNOW that progression tanks were using melds or STR accessories even in 2.x. They had to know that the same thing would happen in Heavensward, especially since most bosses hit the tank for less (relatively) than in 2.x. I think it's more likely that they balance enmity around rather poor players in dungeons in order to facilitate a smoother DF experience.

Knowing players are doing X and not caring that players are doing X because their math says one thing while player created data says another thing is a common mistake devs make and it is only when problems become to visible for them to possibly miss do they go back to reexamine things.

They never even considered that tanks would not be using Vit accessories and only changed things when they realized that Vit accessories were being ignored in Gordias.

[spelley]

Tank Stances allow for higher margins of errors for newer players, undergeared players, players looking to tank large numbers of enemies and those who are less skilled than average (it happens). Tank stances are working exactly as intended and no changes are required.

[shao32]

Tank Stances allow for higher margins of errors for newer players, undergeared players, players looking to tank large numbers of enemies and those who are less skilled than average (it happens). Tank stances are working exactly as intended and no changes are required.

if tank stance works by desing as you say then is more reasons to change grit and shield on ofgc whitout any requeriment of MP, but they are not, tank stances need to be a request for tanking thats why they are called "tank stance"