Jobs are balanced equally and no class is considered meta.

[loreleidiangelo]

The main thing placing SMN behind MCH right now is their lack of an MP Refresh for their Healer. Other then that, they sit in a good spot in terms of balance. Great burst, sustain, peels, utility. Majority of their burst is AoE, so hitting multiple people with it can be very devastating and potentially turn a game around. They can do mini-burst with Aetherflow/Dread, which is both powerful, versatile, and easy to combine with melee/tank burst. They also have the caster lb, which is a lot more potent than range lb.

The SMN nerfs were warranted, looking at how strong Good SMNs are now post-nerf, it was definitely needed. MCH has also received buffs due to general changes during the whole SMN nerfing. Such as GB distance penalty no longer reducing damage at melee range, allowing MCH to stun and burst at the same time for full damage. Also buffs to PvE that also largely effected their place in PvP, hypercharge being a big one. It needs a nerf of some kind, it has everything going for it, and barely any noticeable flaws.

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

Maybe I just don't utilize SMN very well in PVP, then (healer main). Aside from Tri-Bind/Blizz II, what manner of peels do they effectively have? Pet abilities that are fairly easily locked down and have annoying queuing problems/response delay? Caster LB is certainly better than range LB, I'll give you that. And while I like their kit as designed, with mass-pressure/healer resource drains in mind, I just find I'm pretty easily outplayed by people and don't often come out on top in 1v1 scenarios. Might be a player skill issue though, since as I said, I'm one of the masochists that actually prefers healer in PVP for the most part.

[Vice-Taicho]

Missing context , please delete this thread

[Korihu]

yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

My friend, surely as a fellow healer you should also know that of course if you duel 1v1 someone they can never kill you because you'll have full attention on them and no teammates to worry about. Calling for a 1v1 to test healing prowess just seems silly and even a little conceited.

It just sounds like you've never fought against some of the high level MCH. And let me tell you MCH CC make me want to blow myself up because if they're not doing as much damage they sure as heck are going to make it hard for you to heal from their other teammates' damage. I used to have a similar mindset to you until I fought against a couple of really good MCH players. Or maybe I'm just a baddy healer who knows.

[KusoWat]

Maybe I just don't utilize SMN very well in PVP, then (healer main). Aside from Tri-Bind/Blizz II, what manner of peels do they effectively have? Pet abilities that are fairly easily locked down and have annoying queuing problems/response delay? Caster LB is certainly better than range LB, I'll give you that. And while I like their kit as designed, with mass-pressure/healer resource drains in mind, I just find I'm pretty easily outplayed by people and don't often come out on top in 1v1 scenarios. Might be a player skill issue though, since as I said, I'm one of the masochists that actually prefers healer in PVP for the most part.

Tri-bind/blizzard ii is their peel. Unlike brd/mch, it's on the GCD and is AoE. So it's a great peeling tool for your team to give your healer time to heal up/reposition/cc follow up/etc. Their other peel being garuda, but like you mentioned, is not reliable. Takes a lot of skill/effort to properly position garuda to be in the vicinity to knock back.

SMN has other utility such as Blind/Supervirus/E4E/Malady. Blind is one of the more broken soft debuffs in pvp in highly effective against tanks/melee or a range with hawk's eye on cd. E4E despite the proc being rng it more often than not usually applies to the people who hit it. Virus comes off cd around the same time other job's burst period is ready again which is generally 90s give or take. So it can be used to mitigate say range burst everytime. SMN's virus also reduces MND, so it can reduce the healing output of healers too. On top of that they have Malady which reduces healing received of the debuffed target, further straining and pressuring the opposing healer. Virus/Malady helps really well with their sustained damage.

In regards to 1v1ing, I would not gauge a job's potential from 1v1 scenarios since PvP is balanced around a 4v4 encounter. That being said, the only thing a smn can really do vs a melee is blind/debuff and pray otherwise they'll just lose. It's entirely an rng matchup in favor of the melee. Against ranged jobs, I assume they just lose outright, there isn't much counterplay they can do 1v1. But, I don't 1v1 enough to give reliable feedback for SMNvRange. Also, Tanks are gods in 1v1 duels, especially PLD, they'll usually always when a duel against a DPS. 1v1ing isn't SMNs strong suit and much of it's strength is seen in team fights.

[loreleidiangelo]

Thanks for the tips, I definitely picked up on a few things I could try to improve upon. I think some of SMNs strengths like Virus really come through in smaller PVP content where odds are you're Virusing someone who is actually going to be attacking your team in some significant way shortly, compared to when I usually play in FLs and I Virus someone putting on an assault only for them to run back to their team and hide, haha. Same thing with E4E and it actually being a reliable proc on either your pet or the healer, compared to large-scale PVP where there's a lot of targets and people may swap off the one you E4E (I try to use it on ballsy tanks in FLs in the hopes that people will whack on them a ton and proc it, but I feel like I could be getting better mileage out of it somehow).

Either way, I really appreciate the feedback. Sorry for derailing the topic a bit, everyone.

[SuperZay]

Sad, just I never had issues with any MCH because they have no damage outside bursting.

Ummm, you tried to heal through bard burst with Swiftcast Stone and complained it's too strong, but now you can easily heal MCH burst which is 130% stronger and has longer silence?
What happened.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

That would prove nothing. In a real PvP match, while the MCH is doing his burst, the bard will be doing their burst on your Ninja, and the Monk will be a mile away trying to kill a BLM, and a PLD will sit smack in front you slapping you with his shield every 3 seconds.

Yes, on paper, a healer or tank could survive a fill burst from MCH, if they're fully prepared, the stars align with the god awful server ticks in PvP, and your other party members are not in danger of dropping dead.
8/10, meeting a good MCH is game over.

[Isala]

Here we go again. "I died to [insert class here]! That must mean that they're over powered. I didn't just get outplayed." And we wonder why PvP here is a disaster. Let's run down some the ways you could have survived this.

WHM: Virus, Swiftcast>Repose>Repose/run, Divine Prism, Benediction, Tetragrammaton. Divine Seal>Swiftcast>Cure II.
SCH: Virus, Adlo, Lustrate. Dissipation>Lustrate spam
AST: Disable. Noct Aspected Benefic spam. Essential Dignity. Lightspeed>Benefic II spam.

All healers> Attunement.

There is no balance problem here. You let a MCH open up a full burst on you without doing literally any of the dozen things you could have done to stop it.

And if you were a tank... How many stacks did you have with no defensive CDs up?

If you were a DPS... Why did you let the MCH open up on you, instead of destroying him while he had Blood for Blood up? Or, I don't know... Using any of your stuns/knockbacks/binds.... ANYTHING ELSE to get away?

[Magic-Mal]

.

Or you can just... not use your burst when the healer is clearly preparing to protect against your burst..

I mean really, all you and your team needs to do is run away and they will have to run out of Sacred Prism. Well if they want the medals needed to win anyway.

[ChocoFeru]

We need more info. Did the target have medal stacks? How many?


Bursts can happen, if the MCH is good and knows how to burst, the only chance to survive is having a good healer to prevent it with mitigation.

I usually have no problem to heal a burst like that and prevent it's full damage, for example using the ground AoE reducing -40% the incoming damage, then saving insta-heals to pop them just after the impact.