Since Stormblood is bringing new players: can we please get a warning on Castrum/Prae

[Silverquick]

Well don't feel bad I got locked out of them too along with this other what looked like DRG in my party.


It did suck getting cutscene locked and basically allowing the rest of the team to do the actual fighting... but what can you do... after the first one, I stepped into the actual zone before they could lock it and before anyone else got in. So I could take part... even though the cutscene didn't finish until they already had the Boss down to like 3/4ths.

Me and that DRG just kept running to catch up to where everyone else was after being cutscene locked. Luckily we were pretty fast and did get into the fight eventually.

While I am actually used to getting a lot of Recommendations as a DPS in dungeons (which I hear is unheard of unless you're a tank or healer)... I actually got one in this one too... so despite everything I felt pretty good about it.

Still would have been nice to participate without being cutscene locked or at the very least... teleported into the fight after the cutscene ended rather than getting locked out.

[A-Rook]

I’m so sorry this turned out so long! I feel you OP and wanted to post this in case SE looks at it.

Let me preface by saying that I understand how the game has set up the community to reflect poorly in these two dungeons. They include:

• Too many lengthy cutscenes, which make them arduous for repeat players

• No adjustment post-Heavensward. Could be restricted to new players, made into a solo instance, or taken off of Duty Roulettes

• No option to lock players into cutscenes if a first-timer is present

• No warning displayed to notify new players that they may want to use PF ahead of time (though the fact that you should have to make a special group just to experience these mandatory dungeons, is also a problem in and of itself)

• No way to designate your preference for a speed run when queueing to exclude story-driven participants or vice versa

Many of these problems affect either new players or veterans negatively in one way or another. However, veterans go into this instance knowing this, and sprouts go into this instance typically without any understanding of this fact. This creates an experience that is already vastly tilted towards ending poorly for one party or the other. When it comes down to it, these dungeons aren’t duty roulette friendly, but they weren’t initially designed to be.

Alright, with that acknowledged, on to my personal story!

A few weeks ago, I hit the culmination of the MSQ with my significant other and was incredibly excited- we’d finally made it through our first major arc! I woke up early so we had the time to do the instances before I had to leave for work and we hopped into Duty Finder for Castrum.

In about 5 minutes, I went from excitedly chattering about the bosses we were going to face, to panicking over the battles we were being locked out of, to pleading with our team to be patient with us. We’d told them at the beginning that this was our first time, but nobody seemed to care. I think the tone was really solidified for our experience when we finally made it through one gate for a boss encounter, only to have our other healer (a veteran) say, “Uck. I like being the only healer. Get out.”

Eventually, I chose cutscenes over gameplay- missing nearly every major encounter as a result.

We finished the dungeon frustrated, but willing to go on. These things happen in MMOs. Thinking we’d simply had bad luck and stumbled into a speed run group, we sat it out, grumbled to ourselves, then queued for Prae. When we got to The Praetorium, the experience only worsened.

We were berated through both instances, but Prae was far worse. Our team rushed the teleportation units and left us without instructions and a mob of about 75 aggroed enemies. The great part was that we couldn’t even see the teleportation stand through the mass of enemies that’d been pulled on top of them, so we had no idea how to proceed. Don’t even get me started on the elevator pad. Nobody showed us the routes that they then insulted us for not knowing, so we had to constantly figure out how to get from point ‘A’ to point ‘wherever the hell our party was now,’ which put us even farther behind than the cutscenes were already doing.

During one particularly bad sequence, our cutscenes were so backed up I couldn’t even see the end of them. The party continually triggered them to the point where even skipping couldn’t wade us through fast enough. When we commented that we had no chance of catching up unless they let us skip and waited a second for us to get to them, they let us know that they didn’t care, didn’t actually want or need us, and then continued on.

I was understandably confused and bitter. I’d been nothing but polite and upbeat this whole time, hoping for a better experience than Castrum. I’d just spent 50 levels working on my job and rotation, building up my investment in the world and my future in it, only to be told through these instances alone that I was completely unnecessary in the grand finale of my own story. This was especially infuriating because my partner is a tank and I’m a healer. By any logic, we should’ve been necessary cornerstones of the party (clearly this isn’t the case in a post-HW world).

In the end, every boss we’d waited 50 levels to face was defeated without us.

I was particularly puzzled when the ‘Ultima battle is starting’ notification popped up on the screen. I didn’t even think the Ultima Weapon was a part of this instance, but thought it was a separate trial we could at least still look forward to. I’d seen that there's a hard version trial online and assumed it must be presented in the MSQ as a normal trial as well. My stomach dropped as I realized my mistake. I desperately wanted to make it to the final boss. Our team wouldn’t stop no matter how much we requested they hold up and simply used it as fodder to insult us.

We raced to skip through the cutscenes they’d stacked on us, tried to get there in time, and BAM. It was over. Everyone was varying degrees of rude to us on our way out, a few of them even encircled us and spammed dance emotes while taunting us just to really make us feel great. I skipped every following cutscene (I had no idea what was going on story-wise at this point), sat in silence while the credits began to roll, then quit the game. While I got ready for work, I was simultaneously so furious and so upset that I had tears running down my face. I feel ridiculous that I was affected this deeply, but both encounters, and the weeks of seemingly now-pointless work trying to get to them, all contributed to my level of reaction.

The key factor in the ‘everybody plays differently, our speed run is just as valid’ argument, is that new players don’t have the leisure of playing differently here. For first-timers, they’re mandatory quests and necessary to your understanding of the world and post 50+ context. There are no item drops and only minimal Poetics drops when compared to other encounters of the same level. Especially in Prae, even if you agree to skip first time, your team has to be willing to wait through the loading and exiting of those sequences. When it comes down to it: These dungeons are not built for farming. They’re only in the game to serve the story. They exist to paint you as a hero in their cutscenes and reward you for time spent pursuing the MSQ. That is their reward.

Castrum and Prae beautifully bring together the gameplay and story elements from the main questline- all the way from showcasing the villains you’ve waited 50 levels to face, to highlighting the memorable mechanics you’ve faced in the MSQ and job quests. You don’t get the same experience by excluding one or the other as they’re made to go hand in hand (so, no, watching CS’s in the inn afterwards or ignoring the fights to watch CS’s is not the same).

How awesome is it that the Ultima Weapon uses the primal abilities he’s absorbed in his own battle rotation? When we played through these later with a friend, I loved the thought that had gone into crafting these details. Plus that final arena? Epic!

While I did get to run these later, and am so grateful I did. I can’t help but feel the sting of that first experience and that will probably stay with me for awhile.

S-E probably needs to address this, but there's also huge value to be gained in the community by not being super rude to anyone who's respectful and up front about experiencing a game for the first time. MMO’s only last as long as there are people both established and new coming into the game and staying there. New content is only considered for release if a profit is being turned and shows the possibility of growth, not decline.

The entire discussion about jump potions being held right now on the forums highlights this very fact. Naoki Yoshida has stated, and I quote: “If an MMORPG is not able to recruit new players, all that is left is for the game to stabilize and eventually go on a decline. At that moment, the type of operation of the game would shift to one that works hard to slow down the pace of decline. To prevent the game from reaching that point, we would like to prepare as much as we can for the potential new players that may be interested in the game.”

In this vein, I would strongly urge S-E to look for a solution to these dungeons when they're able to- whatever the extent of that solution may be. Jump potions may make some of this content irrelevant, but there are still new players who can and will experience this whether due to personal preference or monetary reasons (ie: not being able to afford the potions). If you want to encourage new players to remain in the realm of FFXIV, these instances have been shown repeatedly through the forums and reddit to be a problem to that very mission.

I’ve read many threads in the past few weeks that have detailed new players who came close to, or actually did quit the game (even temporarily) because of these two dungeons. I don’t blame them. I took a few days off myself after our experience. Whether or not an official solution is enacted, we have to work together to encourage a majority that accepts the drawbacks and opportunities that come with getting queued into this dungeon with sprouts. The community is smart enough to know that this is the first end-game experience for new players. Take the opportunity to share your love of this game with others when it arises, even if it’s not the ‘fastest’ way to get through. If someone absolutely can’t stand to do that, then they should leave (or ask to be kicked), accept their penalty if they get one, and re-queue.

Not every new player you encounter will care about the cutscenes, which is great if someone's trying to speed through, but for those players that do, being understanding will encourage them to continue investing in this game at an important moment. You’re not only supporting a new player, you’re supporting the company that produces the game you have an interest in seeing continued. In surprisingly common cases, if the new player isn’t already positively connected into the FFXIV community through other means, this experience alone can cause them to stop playing altogether, which carries repercussions for the FFXIV community as a whole.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Unfortunately, after four years, I cannot see them making any adjustments to Castrum and Praetorium. The devs acknowledged their mistake and have seen only played cut scenes once you exit the duty. There isn't much they can do short of revamping the entire dungeons into a single trial. If they force people to watch cut scenes, veterans will never queue for it. At this point, adding a warning would at least brace unsuspecting new players about the DF and to try forming a party if they wish to want scenes as they unfold.

[Knahli]

My suggestion for this in the past was always a checkbox option similar to the 'Join Duty in Progress' unique to those two dungeons where, when selecting it, non-first timers would get a substantial tome boost in exchange for being paired with first timers who wished to view those cutscenes. Progress would be placed under a forced locked so no-one could proceed until the cutscenes were viewed or skipped by new players. That way, everyone knows what they are getting into and both parties have incentive to choose the option that suits them best.

[Kazrah]

I feel like there should be two versions to this:

Quest Versions: Single-player, have NPCs attack and/or eliminate mobs with a random group of NPCs (tank, healer, one or two dps) assist on bosses, which would be scaled down as necessary. Would otherwise work similarly to the current versions of Praetorium and Castrum Meridianum, cutscenes and all, but this version would only be playable once. Think of it like a more suitable right of passage for the player.

Dungeon Versions: Unlocked upon completion of the quest versions or unlocked automatically for players who have already completed the 2.0 storyline. Cutscenes would be removed, group size would be 4-player rather than 8-player with enemy health pools adjusted as necessary and moved to the level 50 roulette list with increased poetics awarded due to lack of loot items similarly to Aetherochemical Research Facility. New player bonuses would still be awarded.

That way, new players get their cutscenes and the time to watch them, other players get rewarded for going into it after, and the content continues to remain just as relevant as all the other level 50 dungeons. EVERYBODY WINS!!

[MicahZerrshia]

I think it would have been better if handled like the quest "Fate of Stars" where you run with the scions. That was actually really fun and I wish they would employ that for more story dungeons.

[LalaRu]

If they force people to watch cut scenes, veterans will never queue for it.

Frankly, I think the people that will never queue are the rude ones our friend here encountered. Being a veteran does not means you become rude over the limits and trashing the newcomers a mandatory mission.

My first experience there was a mess too, got that feeelings of being trashed away by a community I never want meet again in any duty, and I can assure you if the cs there become unskippable, queueing that roulette will become my mission everytime I login everyday.

[Serilda]

I feel like the original goal was to introduce the player to the more 'epic' feel of an 8-player group for a mission so in a way solo would be a shame (but flexible scaling on numbers in general would be lovely as an option for those who would benefit). But I don't feel we need to keep it relevant for level 70 players. It's facerolly and not that interesting, and those who fancy some nostalgia can always join a PF and help a new player out whenever they need it. I really strongly support the idea to encourage new players to consider Party Finder via a warning message.

[Cabalabob]

I kind of like the idea of it being made solo, they're the only 2 dungeons in main roulette and no new ones are ever going to get added to it and they would easily work as a solo instances.

Fact is, no matter what they do to "incentivise" people to run them, you don't WANT to run them, you just want the rewards and are going to want to burn through it as fast as possible.

As a solo instance people don't have to run them anymore once they beat it and new players don't have to put up with insane queue times just to get their experience ruined by people who don't want to be there.

Get rid of main roulette and distribute the rewards you'd normally get from it between 50/60/ex roulette.

[Fyrebrand]

if I hadn't had my girlfriend right there reassuring me that it would never happen again, I would have quit the game.

This statement alone is more than enough to warrant at least some kind of redesign of Castrum and Praetorium, as solo story quests. I mean, unless Square Enix has completely given up on getting new players into the game..?

You don't have to scrap the existing 8-player dungeons as they exist now. Keep them as optional "wandering minstrel" versions that unlock after you complete the main vanilla story, remove all the story cutscenes from them, and assign them different kinds of rewards more in line with what advanced "farming" players are after. Keep newbies trying to enjoy the story away from these speed demons.

You don't have to create an entirely new set of dungeons from scratch for the story people, either. Keep the environments as they are, and divide them up into a handful of smaller-scale, solo-oriented missions. Cut out the huge crowds of mobs, and replace them with a handful of smaller groups. Make the boss encounters much more simplified, but with some semblance of their intended mechanical flavour where possible. Insert all the same story cutscenes we had before, where appropriate. I'm not going to pretend this is a negligible amount of work, but I do think it is worth doing, considering this section of the game has been a notorious blemish on the game that people STILL cringe and have bitter feelings about.

The proposed extra warning message to manually create a group in Party Finder may help new players guarantee that they get a group of like-minded allies, but I feel this is unsatisfactory for three main reasons:
1) It reinforces the arrogant and selfish attitude that Duty Finder is just for experienced farm runs, and not a place for newbies. You think "you can watch cutscenes at the inn" is used as a lazy bludgeon NOW? Wait til the game starts literally telling new players they shouldn't bother with DF.
2) Newbies are a huge part of why Duty Finder and various roulettes even exist, in the first place. Square Enix doesn't need you to queue for endgame MSQ instances for YOUR OWN enjoyment. They need you do queue for them because new people need to get through this content so they can progress with the game and story. They even give you a BONUS for having new people in a DF group -- that bonus isn't there so you can leave newbies in the dust and lock them out of every encounter, and tell them to queue in Party Finder if they actually want to see content.
3) Has anyone actually DONE this, for real? How long did it take to find a group? I have a feeling you will be waiting in Party Finder for HOURS. I mean, people know about Party Finder, and there's a reason most of us suffer through toxic DF nonsense and have the main MSQ ruined. Maybe things have changed a bit, now that PF is cross-server? I doubt it is significant, though.

If we're looking for a band-aid "quick fix" solution that doesn't involve re-making the dungeons entirely, I would propose a few less-drastic ideas:
* Do not award "new player bonus" if any new player(s) get locked out of boss rooms, or better yet just don't allow boss rooms to be entered at all if anyone is in a story cutscene or isn't within a reasonable radius of the room
* Inflict a harsh penalty on kicking or shutting out first-timers, such as DF queue lock-outs, lessened baseline completion rewards, ineligibility for WT stickers, or disqualification from commendations.
* How about the flip-side of your suggestion, where players queuing for Main Scenario roulette get an extra pop-up message: "Warning: Duties in this category are a unique but important part of experiencing the story of A Realm Reborn, and contain lengthy story cutscenes. By queuing for this roulette, it is likely you will be matched with new players who wish to view these scenes in full. Please be patient and courteous to your fellow players and allow them to enjoy Final Fantasy XIV as intended."
* After completing the dungeon, first-timers are prompted with a message box asking if the other players in their group were cooperative and allowed them to experience the content properly. If they agree, their teammates are granted a further bonus to rewards, even if they have already left the instance.
* If you integrate some combination of elements like these, you can increase the baseline rewards for the roulette in general, to make it more worthwhile.