How would you change Specialization?

[Airget]

With 3.5 coming soon and having seen the entirety of the ideology behind crafting, how would you change it's rather cut and dry concept of unique recipes to crafts?

While this does limit the amount of people who can craft said recipe, does it really add to the game when every large patch just throws it into the common pool? In this way Specialist Recipes just become this weak form of gating recipes to limit players to being able to only fully craft from 3 of the 8 DOH within the game.


You don't create a community of crafters with this concept because at the end of the day all you really have to concern yourself with is having 2 other friends who can get the other 5 craft classes to make up for the ones you can't do, so then you have to ask yourself, what good do Specialist Recipes do when it only takes 2 people to create a monopoly?

I feel like if you want Specialist to work, you have to be more ambitious with it, unique recipes are a very loose reward when they just become common after a few months. So why not have a system in which being a specialist means you learn how to do things better, more efficient, with time and practice?

This is what I mean, So let's say I'm a Carpenter Specialist and I synth a lot of Cedar Lumber. The more I synth this Lumber, the more efficient I become with it, at my first rank I learn how to produce the same Lumber but with 2 less Logs needed. As I rank up again I can now produce 2 Lumber but I go back to needing 5 logs. By Rank 3 I Master the ability of using 2 less against and make 2 Lumber per. By Rank 4 I unlock the "Double HQ" potential which not only grants me HQ Lumber but also doubles the quantity I obtain which in this case would be 4 HQ Lumber and the cost of 3 Logs.

Why can't we have a system like this which actually shows progression with a recipe we craft with? Now not every recipe needs this lving process, heck I"d even go as far to say you just create a very Standard form of skill for each recipe type, so all Lumber would share the same skill lv so as you level up your Skill you would reveal new effects when crafting said item type. Keep in mind this would be the new specialization concept, a means of being able to craft quicker, more efficient, needing less, making more, that's what specialization should be about. It should be about making your Crafting Classes of choice more efficient. Where you can have a form of progression past the gear grind that can be carried over into future expansions.

At the end of it all, what really drew me away from Crafting was just feeling nothing interesting from it, I was just getting gear to have it and sadly the specialist Recipes added are so bare bone, so for your efforts you have the opportunity to craft 3-5 of the unique recipes that only Specialist can make. The "reward" doesn't fit the time it takes to get there when you consider that for Carpenter this current patch version I have the "luxury" of crafting some gear to help players who want to catch up so this in itself does nothing for current players and then as icing on the cake I obtain 2 other unique recipes, one being Teak Lumber, a part used for others that doesn't scream "specialist" when you look at it and the Tier 4 Aquarium which is nice.

But look at it like this, a Carpenter is chasing a carrot to gear up to be able to craft those Specialist recipes and yet when they get to that point the only thing they have to look forward to is one recipe. When you consider that's what the Specialist system amounts to so far, there is definitely a flaw with the system.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I've said it numerous times.

Specialization Only should be removed as a lock on recipes preventing people from doing them. Specialist Actions should not exist either. Remove both of those, and make the Specialization Stone confer ALL of the other 21 Cross Class Actions, of the level 15, 37, and 50 variety.

Once the Specialist hits level 70, or goes over 60, the Specialist should gain access to all of the level 54 Cross Class Actions as well.

This would simultaneously remove most of the advantage an Omnicrafter has over someone with only one Crafting class, while allowing them both to actually compete with one another in the marketplace. That competition was the stated goal of the Specialist System.

Preventing people (those with different Specializations) from crafting high level recipes does not provide competition, it eliminates it, which is in diametric opposition to the stated goal of the Specialist system.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

If I were to make changes to specialization, I would remove much of the rng factor that plagues the abilities. The whole point of specialization should be to make it easier for you to craft stuff from your trade compared to a non-specialist... even if they are an "omni-crafter" and you are not. For specialization to mitigate the need for omni-craft leveling, the skills it provides need to compete with cross class skills from other crafts. Its ok if the specialist skills end up making some omni-craft skills redundant because the idea is that if you're a specialist you're better at what you do with your craft than someone who isn't... even if you dont level the other crafting classes.

Here's a few changes I'd make:

* Whistle While You Work should just be a plain buff of some sort. Not this weird "buffs certain skills when quality is good or excellent and stack is at a multiple of whatever" nonsense. My head spins just reading that friggin tooltip. WWYW should be as simple as a slightly better Comfort Zone. have it cost 60CP and restore 9CP per step. Rng heaped on to rng does nothing to help someone who doesnt want to level every craft and WWYW as it is, is just a poorly thought out idea.

* Innovative Touch should have a 70% chance of success so its guaranteed to work when coupled with Steady hand II. If it worked like this it would be a better alternative to Innovation for omni-crafters and a replacement for Innovation for single-classed crafters.

* Nymeia's Wheel should simply be a super cheap version of Manipulation. It would serve as an upgrade to Manipulation for omni-crafters, and a replacement for Manipulation for single classed-crafters.

* Byregot's Miracle is decidedly inferior to Byregot's Blessing when it SHOULD be better. Byregot's Miracle should do exactly what Byregot's Blessing does but at 100% success rate, and use up no durability. Again it gives access to one of the best cross-class skills to single-classed crafters and still offers an upgrade to omni-crafters when using their specialist craft.

* Trained Hand is again inferior to another skill that is often cross-classed with a ridiculous rng component thrown in for the lawls. Trained Hand should be a better version of Careful Synthesis II. It should have Efficiency: 150% Success Rate: 100% and cost 0CP.

Those changes would make specializations actually GOOD and also give single-classed crafters good versions of some of the desirable cross-class skills.

[OoglieBooglie]

The hardest part of it is balancing it. Do you make it so anyone can have a high chance of successfully hqing the recipe? Then there's no point for cross class skills. Do you make it so having access to the cross class skills AND the specialist stuff is not overpowered? Then the people without the cross class skills suffer for it.

My opinion is that the specialist system should give the skills, and the cross class skills would act as a small boost for it, maybe along the lines of 5-10% more for the skills. You'd still have access to the cross class skills on non-specialists, but specialists with the skills would just get the upgrade for slotting it in as a cross class skill. Specialists without the cross class skills would simply get the normal version of the skill.

[MN_14]

Preventing people (those with different Specializations) from crafting high level recipes does not provide competition, it eliminates it, which is in diametric opposition to the stated goal of the Specialist system.

Yes and no. While it is true that the specialist system was intended to eliminate the need to level all classes to 50 and allow single class crafters to actually produce end game crafts/compete better, you have to remember what single class crafters were complaining about. IIRC, these were the prevalent complaints:

1) Having to level all classes to obtain cross class skills (particularly the level 50 ones)

2) Being unable to compete with omnicrafters due to higher production costs. Single class crafters would have to buy intermediate materials whereas an omni-crafter could make all of them and completely out-price them in the market

3) Omni-crafters ruthlessly dominating each and every market leaving no niches for single class crafters

So the developers wanted to design a system that could address these concerns. They introduced specialist abilities to take care of the leveling issue, but these were clearly a flop. While technically useable, they're far more difficult to use, less reliable, and more expensive (delineations). From my limited experience with single class 4* simulations (which admittedly probably only scratches the surface of what the system can do), you can pretty consistently build up around 9.5k quality as long as you have the level 15 cross class skills, meaning you'd want a starting quality of 3500-4000 which is quite a bit.

To address points 2) and 3), they first introduced systems to make things way harder for crafters to omni-craft:

- a massive favor grind intended to either force a crafter to go through a thousand hours of gathering to gear all classes or buy the materials at great expense (very few would be able to buy all of the materials; players that did would be helping the economy via wealth redistribution and then there was also the cost of melds at the time.....)

- alternatively weekly gear lockouts in the form of red scrip gear

These systems were massive failures as well, so mid-expansion they chose to turn things around. Gearing would now be easy while specialist recipe lockouts would take care of points 2) and 3).

The effectiveness of specialist abilities can be fixed, but I don't really see an easy solution for the competition aspect. Even if specializations have abilities that mirror cross class (quick and easy fix that is better than messing around with and balancing 2 different sets of abilities that can be used simultanously), there would still be complaints of omni-crafters dominating every market though more competitve pricing.

[Lambdafish]

Then there's no point for cross class skills.

They are removing cross class skills from battle classes and revamping the system, no reason why they shouldn't do it with crafters.

[Culfinrandir]

I've never used the Specialist Abilities at all. They're not even on my hotbars. If I am able to craft everything using the abilities that come with levelling crafter up to lvl60 then I don't need to complicate my life further!

Of course, there's some excellent theorycrafters in this game who help everyone with the more complex parts of crafting. I always try to find my own rotations before using, say, Rath's 437CP wonderful creation. That's all part of the fun to me.

[Solarra]

I started the game in HW and for me, the option to specialise came far too late in the game to be attractive.
I started out only intending to level 2 or 3 crafting classes, quickly realised it wouldn't work due to needing the cross-class skills and went down the omni-crafter route. By the time I'd levelled everything to 50, the option to concentrate on just 3 classes for the last 10 levels seemed pointless. Specialisation always felt like it was taking something away from me rather than offering something extra.

How would I change it?
-I'd offer specialisation much earlier, say around level 15. Put the quest in with the Guildmasters and let the Soulstone give the same boost to craftsmanship and control as you get now.
-I'd scrap the specialist abilities (I've never used them and I don't know anyone who does). Instead I'd do as Roth suggests above, let your specialist classes get access to all the cross-class skills as you level them. This would eliminate the need to level everything to 50.
-Annoying as the recipe locks can be at times, I'd keep them as it really does encourage you to make friends and cooperate.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

-Annoying as the recipe locks can be at times, I'd keep them as it really does encourage you to make friends and cooperate.

To be perfectly honest, all it has encouraged me to do is get and keep a small stack (10-ish) of the blank Soul of the Crafter, and then plan out what I want to craft so I do not need to return to a Specialist once I've left it. Plenty of time later on to rebuild that small stack. Right now, in anticipation of T4 materia needs for crafting, I've got 136 RCT. That would have been 14 more Souls of the Crafter had I wanted them. It is not hard to change specializations, merely somewhat time consuming to get the RCS.

The effectiveness of specialist abilities can be fixed, but I don't really see an easy solution for the competition aspect. Even if specializations have abilities that mirror cross class (quick and easy fix that is better than messing around with and balancing 2 different sets of abilities that can be used simultanously), there would still be complaints of omni-crafters dominating every market though more competitve pricing.

You can never fix that competition aspect, not with the current recipe design; with the exception of CUL, which has no materials refined by other classes, anyway. The simple reason is that an omnicrafter will always be able to make those refined materials more cheaply than someone who does not have the right class leveled to produce it, Specialist or no.

Locking recipes behind Specializations does two things. First, it stifles competition. Rather than having everyone able to produce it, you have less than 50% of people able to produce it (depending on exact Specialist breakdown). Second, it increases the cost of the goods to the board buyer. When you have fifteen people producing something and trying to get it to sell, you get into an undercut war. When you only have two people with the right Specialization trying to produce somehting and sell, your undercut war is far less likely to happen, meaning simultaneously a greater profit margin for the crafter, and a deeper gouge into the buyer's wallet.

[MN_14]

You can never fix that competition aspect, not with the current recipe design; with the exception of CUL, which has no materials refined by other classes, anyway. The simple reason is that an omnicrafter will always be able to make those refined materials more cheaply than someone who does not have the right class leveled to produce it, Specialist or no.

Oh I agree. In the idealized case, the locked recipes are supposed to force "omni-crafters" to buy materials/final products from single class crafters and vice versa. However, in practice, players can get around it through alts (uncommon) or by swapping specializations and then mass producing materials or even final crafts. Also, due to the unpopularity of endgame crafting in general, certain markets will invariably be controlled by one or two players (could in theory be a single class crafter which does solve the omni-crafter competition problem at the expense of all buyers). I don't think the developers considered the buyer angle or they only used the largest servers as some kind of benchmark in estimating market activity.

It's more or less impossible to design recipe locks in such a way without severely affecting one party (buyer) as they're intentionally designed to help a single-class crafter by removing their omni-crafter rivals from the equation. At most, you could solve the single crafter complaints about omni-crafter competition but you'd open the door to a flood of monopoly complaints.