Yes or No, and Explain, Please.

[StouterTaru]

No, you're trying to "sell" a house. Stop dancing around an action that is clearly toxic and taking advantage of a situation by making it seem innocent. It isn't, it's unfair, and it's literally the definition of ransom.

Unfair to who, the people that want a house for way less than it's worth but weren't lucky enough to get it during the initial sale? If someone didn't "put a house up for sale," there's a 99.9% chance that the person who unfairly doesn't have a house still wouldn't have a house.

[Judah_Brandt]

The house is "worth" whatever the game sells it for. The Gil you purchased the house for is of no consequence. Whatever the lot sells for from the server is the only price a player should have to pay. The system sucks because you don't get all of your Gil back, so yeah keep justifying your ransom. A player owning the plot adds literally zero value, so extorting money from another player in exchange for literally nothing is absolutely ludicrous. If the plot came with the house you built and the furniture you put in it, I'd say great. But there isn't even a system to fairly auction the house, just a workaround where people gouge other players because they weren't lucky enough. It's ridiculous that the behavior is tolerated. It sucks you can't have everything you ever put into the feature back, but that is no justification for this entire crappy workaround to a bad system. Stop it.

[StouterTaru]

No, the house, or any item or service in existence, is worth what someone is willing to give for it and someone else is willing to accept for it. What you think someone should pay or what something is worth is irrelevant unless you are a part of the transaction.

I think a Jackson Pollock painting isn't worth the cost of the canvas and paint used to make it, someone who owns it thinks it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars, someone who wants to buy it thinks it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not worth $8.72, it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The owner isn't literally ransoming it.

[Judah_Brandt]

You clearly don't get it, that's cool, we'll just agree to disagree and hopefully Square Enix will resolve the manner in a way that makes all players happy. Until then, they'll keep banning and warning players for what you seem to think is fair practice. Later.

[StouterTaru]

I get your point, I just disagree with it. You think things should be more "fair" for everyone. The problem with your version of "fair" is that it removes all value from anything, making everything worthless.

My solution to your perceived problem - start the housing reverse auction at higher than what the property is actually worth. Nobody will buy a small house for 60M just to flip for 100M plus the 60M to actually buy the house.

ps - I have yet to hear of anyone banned for a legit "housing sale."

[Judah_Brandt]

The Market Board still exists. My version of "fair" would be that the price of the house isn't dictated by the player base, it's dictated by the server as it is now. Just because I bought a house from the server for 14.5 million Gil doesn't immediately make the inherent value of that piece of content shoot up. My ownership adds zero value to that plot. If I build a house, if I add a garden, if I put a bunch of couches in the house - none of that adds value as it is not transferred to another player. Your side of the argument is that just by buying the plot you should automatically be able to sell it for more. What is your reasoning? Is it because of the limitations on the housing market, therefor you can now dictate the price as opposed to what the game values and dictates that content is worth?

Players can still sell their crafted wares for whatever price they deem appropriate - that is a free market. The housing market has clear prices set per server based upon data on that server's economy (poor, medium, rich) and that is the value of the property. The demand is created because there is a shortage of that asset, but the game does not account for supply and demand, the value of a plot is static and depreciates over time as the plot is not purchased, much like the Market Board has items that players reduce the cost on over time in order to entice its sale. The problem here is that you're trying to take the static value that the game charges for a feature (housing) and holding that ransom. Since you're unaware of what that word means I will help you.

"Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved."

You're saying that the player should be allowed to dictate the value of something that they literally can not dictate - The player can not increase the server-side price of a plot of land in the game. What they do is purchase the land for it's actual, defined cost, and then literally hold onto it in order to extort the player base into paying exorbitant amounts for a feature that cost them what it actually should have. If you don't understand how that's unfair I don't understand what level of comprehension you are capable of. Before you reply with an interpretation of this where you compare a static, game defined market to the player driven free one, please pause a moment to understand that they are two completely different things. You are not transferring any form of ownership for this fee. As you said before, you're exchanging an in-game action for in-game currency which is quite literally extortion since you are the sole definer of the market's value. The player has to pay whatever you ask, as you won't relinquish the plot otherwise, and that action in and of itself is far from perfect since it is entirely possible for the whole thing to blow up in your faces i.e. another player could walk up and purchase the plot thus negating any "deal" you had in place, then you're both out of Gil because not only did you just lose your "asset" but you'd have to refund the other person's Gil.

As for accounts that have been banned for illicit activity, why do you think there's an entire subreddit for these transactions. Yes, there are people who've been banned. Yes, there are people who've been warned, and yes, they absolutely deserve it.

You said it yourself "start the housing reverse auction at higher than what the property is actually worth..."

Clearly even you know it's wrong to get more than you paid for something when you add zero value to it. Leveraging a feature's scarcity against another player is toxic behavior, through and through. Notice I didn't say item, because housing isn't an item, is not part of the economy, and no matter what you say you can't magically define it that way because it isn't. It's a player-created market driven by personal greed. Fact.

[NomadicDragon]

The fact that there is not enough clarity in the ToS, UA, game guides, and individual GM decisions(take screenshots of these with grain of salt, SS can be faked!) is the reason this argument is happening at all. The distinction of if selling a house in the context of this game being innately good or innately bad is entirely irrelevant. I'm not looking for an Exact Text Line of "You shall not buy or sell houses!", but the spirits of the sections I keep getting pointed out do not apply. 3.2, spirit is "Don't screw with our clients, connections, or servers. 3.6, spirit is "Don't use our game to commit crimes." Nowhere covers the spirit of "Selling houses is bad."

Judah, you would have a ton of fun with a college Microeconomics class, its obvious you've put lots of thought into this and seeing how you stack up alongside a few centuries worth of free market studies might show you a potential career!

[StouterTaru]

Your side of the argument is that just by buying the plot you should automatically be able to sell it for more. What is your reasoning? Is it because of the limitations on the housing market, therefor you can now dictate the price as opposed to what the game values and dictates that content is worth?

Players can still sell their crafted wares for whatever price they deem appropriate - that is a free market. The housing market has clear prices set per server based upon data on that server's economy (poor, medium, rich) and that is the value of the property.

My side is that it's an in game transaction for in game currency. The prices were set per server based on the economies of those servers 2 years ago. The fact that people are willing to pay 10x the cost shows that it's clearly outdated.

"Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved."

Look up extort now. The grocery store does not hold my food for ransom; they don't extort money from me.

You're saying that the player should be allowed to dictate the value of something that they literally can not dictate - The player can not increase the server-side price of a plot of land in the game.

You still don't seem to understand the difference between cost and value.

Leveraging a feature's scarcity against another player is toxic behavior, through and through. Notice I didn't say item, because housing isn't an item, is not part of the economy, and no matter what you say you can't magically define it that way because it isn't. It's a player-created market driven by personal greed. Fact.

Housing clearly is part of the economy, and all markets everywhere were created by those participating in them, driven by personal greed. Fact.

[NomadicDragon]

I consider my issue closed in a satisfactory way, the GM supervisor I spoke with was great. My result cannot be taken as official policy so don’t bother citing it, but I will share my experience.

The warning is for using PF to advertise a house buy/sale. I accept the warning, since even I know Party Finder is only intended to assist party formation.
The GM team will investigate any report of inappropriate behavior, and if that GM finds the behavior inappropriate, a caution/warning/suspension/ban can occur.
That said, if neither the seller nor the buyer put in such a report, there is no third party with any cause to put in such a report.
I see this as incentive for sellers to not abuse the system, if the buyer regards anything about the transaction as inappropriate, they have cause to file a report, even if they don't buy. Seller beware!

The housing market is a very grey area, even to the GMs. They and players are all hoping for something they can cite! Your turn, SE!

[Apocrypher]

Ultimately, this whole situation is currently a grey area that is being left up to the discretion of the representing GM that gets assigned to the situation until such time the people on the FFXIV team responsible for sorting out the ToS/EULA addendums/alterations can hammer out all the pertinent odds and ends. While they should have expected situations like land-barons and whatnot when housing was first introduced, there is nothing we can do about it now other than abide by the rulings made during the interim. Eventually, the agreements we consent to for this game are going to be updated to appropriately to reflect that a) offering to relinquish a housing plot for anything beyond free and/or b) selling a Free Company with an attached housing unit is against the ToS.

People have to deal with any infraction they receive at this point in time for violating the rules as they currently stand, and understand that FFXIV is not a democracy where the masses decide what is and is not right.