McH 5 ammo no-gb/no-pre pull buff opener w/ bigger sustained burst

[KilluaKhan]

So i posted awhile back showing rotations with no prebuff prior to boss pulls and didnt get much feedback beside the fact that im losing "time", and i still cant wrap my head around why is it beneficial to prebuff all your mch buffs before engaging in combat. sooo unless someone gives me a answer, heres my reasoning on how this rotation may serve you better.

*Edit again so people can see*
I am going to post video link up here first because it seems that people are not even reading what i wrote. so watch video to see how every works and then comment on regards of my questions. if not, then READ carefully. Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRP...ctjkdTltrpb1Wn

*EDIT* - So no one seems to want to answer my question and explain why using prebuffs is beneficial, so i am going to use my theory here on why it is NOT good.
Ok, so to start off, us being machinist, we are dps/support classes right? yes ok, one job is being dps...ok and then as a dps..is it not optimal to maximize our dps output? yes , no? ok if yes ,then how come it is beneficial to use the buffs time on doing nothing? like for 2-4secs of the 4 buffs, it is not going to ANY damage increase at all. Duration of HE,B4B,RS = 20secs, Turret = 24-5ish. Ok so wasting 10-20% of buff's damage increase(especially now that you've stacked it to +20%,+10%,+15% dex, -5% vunerability on enemy,i dont know how the math works when it stacks but it seems that it adds up to alot) is good for your dps output? If so, then how other dps classes are sooo meticulous about how they do their rotations? like how come they are able to fit n weave in their buffs accordingly to their attacks so it benefits their maximum output instead of blowing all their buffing CDS right away? I really dont get it, so pleaseee explain to me WHY do we waste the increased damage on nothing??? Also, if you are going to say well 2-4secs isnt much. THEN whyy would me delaying it during fight in order to maximize EVERY SHOT during and b4 wildfire is not beneficial to our dps output??? the only reason i can think of in using your buffing cds right away instead of weaving it without GB so you get autoattacks too(also a plus in not starting with gb) is when you literally have a instance where pre-buffing vs non pre-buff (6-7secs difference) is going to effect where i am unable to use my buffs to its fully extend. *End edit*

*opener is intended for end game bosses where you have 60 secs before engaging in boss*
like lets say even A1 Normal. during run to faust, reload your ammos . qr till boss.
i've mainly been in static so everyone usually preps first anyways for savage.

*edit im going to post seconds involved so there is a better understanding of timeline*
Rotation goes : (# = ammo left) {used for seconds}
NO pre buffing, NO GB (5 ammo prior pull) -
{tank pulls} -
{1} Hotshot(4) + Autoattack
{2} Hypercharge
{3} Blood 4 blood
{4} AA + Slug(3)
{5} Hawk's eye
{6} Raging strikes
{7} AA + split shot(2)
{8} GB ON
{9} Pot
{10} Leadshot(1)
{11} Wildfire
{12} Cleanshot(0 left but still has +20 potency from ammo that was used)
{13} Rapid fire
{14} reload
{15} Slug shot(4)
{16} Reassemble
{17} Clean shot(3)
{18} Gauss round
{19} Split shot(2)
{20} Ricochet
{21} Slug shot(1)
{22} Head graze
{23} Quick reload
{24} Clean shot (1 left still cause QR)
{25} Blank
{26} GB off
{27} Split(with ammo buff) + AA and then Wildfire blows up. KABOOM.
*entire rotation timing exactly to video listed below, and ive run multiple tests, it matches everytime*


ok before you start bashing at me, let me explain it. the reason I set it up like that is so that
#1 -EVERY SHOT has ammo potency
#2 - BUFFS last all the way till the end with the exception of blood for blood + medication dropping on last split shot +AA (but all other buffs still on till very end of WF)
#3 - I dont waste precious BUFF time by using it pre-pull, instead i use it to buff all my shots in WF AND pre wildfire except first hotshot. (Calculated and did tests, the time difference between the standard pre-opener vs mine issss 6-7 secs because prepull all buffs = -04, my first buff starts actually first hotshot but il exclude, is the HC + B4B @ 2-3 secs in pull
#4 - I've heard that supposely to optimize stance dancing GB is when you have no "abilities" to weave in for extra dmg, BUT what if i told you, that you can benefit from having GB off in beginning so while you are using BUFFING abilities, during each 2 buff or shot fired in beginning gets you 3-4 shots before i put GB on.
#5 - My theory is that in order to maximize our "blowing of CDS" right in beginning is to blow it while in WF in order to do the "BiGGER hits"
#6 - again, comparing to the opener used in these forums, my buffs will actually be used every sec(almost) on its duration
- all buffs on the standard opener drop right the last clean shot with HE + pot dropping before that
#7 - During whole opener, EVERY SHOT has ammo proc'd to it, yes even beginning shots
#8 - Gain of 3 -4 AA with buffs included prior to using WF
# 9 - Im no expert in McH but i do like to think pragmactically, so saying that, I dont really see how using pre-buffs b4 pull will net you any beneficially gains in long run, unless there is a boss encounter that has mechanics or enrages which gives you a heads up in using your buffs 6 secs before me, then I honestly still cant think of the reason you want to sacrifice 4-6 secs of buff time (20- 5) of each buff you use prepull that doesnt get to be used in actual combat.
- ALSO if you are in a pug or random group, prebuffing without pull macro or voice chats will net you even more losses for prebuffing because of tank pulling whenever or if sudden lag.
- AND if you did have a static or with people that do those stuff, THEN you do have time to use 5 ammo in beginning stack. even i usually have like 2-3min to go over each role b4 actual pull time or if we died during fight, respawn time + other peoples CD will give you that time(im talking about pre-formed groups ) *intended towards savage*

ok pros and cons time for this opener

PROS - NO RISKY lost of buff time due to anything at all(unless tank wipes like instant pull)
- YOU GET 11 SHOTS WITH AMMO ANDDDD BUFF FOR OUR BIGGEST HIT (wildfire) using my order, I have yet to see ANY WF go under 8.5k @ ilvl200, even no crit chances net me that
- Why? because you get 3 CLEAN shots,2 slug shots and 2 splits. again ALL WITH PROCS AND AMMO 3 cleanshot + ammo, 2 slug w/ ammo,2 splits ammo VS 2 clean (1 w/ ammo) ,2 slug w/ ammo,3 split (2 w/ ammo)
- again talking in comparison to the standard opener in these forums
- that also explains why I sacrifice a un-proc slug right in beginning (-60 potency because it has ammo with it), but it also has b4b,hotshot,HC buff.
- I do that slug for clean proc during WF to fit 3, if you wondering why i dont use split first is because i use the split for slug proc in second wf shot, also the fact that weaving in all buffs optimally takes 4 gcds, b4 wf activates. so i use it to bait.

cons - I am 5-6 seconds behind normal rotation for buffs, also 1 GCD behind for WF.
so unless there is a fight where5-6secs will screw up using my buffs or that 1 GCD that will screw up my wf, i dont really see that being too much of a con.

so unless someone can explain to me WHY having 3 auto attacks before wildfire and having all buffs last till the end is a bad thing, then I would suggest trying this out.

REMEMBER THIS. I am one GCD behind you for WF and 6 secs for buffs. BUT i GAIN during that buff and one gcd behind.
Also note that everything still lines up except hotshot being 3 gcd ahead of leadshot.
ALSO i have not done exact potency + buff calculation properly yet but given the time frame of wildfire lasting 15secs and it takes me 12secs to get there, my whole rotation is 27-28secs.
Standard opener is 25secs with prebuffing. soo if we count to 30secs for comparison. Standard has 10-15seconds of noo buffs and proc'n shots after WF vs my 1 GCD that Has been proc'd(slug) but with no buffs.

this is also not yet pieced together for maximum output, still moving few skills around but I still believe that opening w/5 ammo, No gb and no prebuff is better then wasting time not using buffs and having not AA due to GB on AND not maximizing time within wildfire.

Heres video showing the rotation, you can even slow it down to see that what im saying is true - please watch it first before criticizing my opener methods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRP...ctjkdTltrpb1Wn
pics showing buffs duration

*Edit w/ more pics of showing buffs duration*

[RiceisNice]

The boss' enrage timer starts when he's pulled, not when you personally start attacking. Spending 7-8 seconds to buff yourself at the beginning of a pull is wasted dps which may not necessarily be made up with a stronger burst, especially when it can get tight with dps check.

As for re-loading the ammo thing, you may or may not want to delay your reload/quick reload usage depending on the fight. If I don't use my reload right after lead shot in A3S, it won't be up in time before the first wash away (and therefore I cannot prep my 1-2-1 shots to use on the go)

[Ryythe]

The boss' enrage timer starts when he's pulled, not when you personally start attacking. Spending 7-8 seconds to buff yourself at the beginning of a pull is wasted dps which may not necessarily be made up with a stronger burst, especially when it can get tight with dps check.

As for re-loading the ammo thing, you may or may not want to delay your reload/quick reload usage depending on the fight. If I don't use my reload right after lead shot in A3S, it won't be up in time before the first wash away (and therefore I cannot prep my 1-2-1 shots to use on the go)

I used to think like this in A3 as well until i realized that quick reload is godsend. I started going back to 5 ammo opener. On phase transition, I start with my normal hot shot->lead shot, quick reload comes up right then, QR->split shot->(reload comes up here) go into normal reload rotation and have all my instant cast procs up for the wash away.

[Haxetc]

I used to think like this in A3 as well until i realized that quick reload is godsend. I started going back to 5 ammo opener. On phase transition, I start with my normal hot shot->lead shot, quick reload comes up right then, QR->split shot->(reload comes up here) go into normal reload rotation and have all my instant cast procs up for the wash away.

Are you clipping Slug shot or just waiting an extra CD for WF? Because what your doing is putting reload in my WF spot.

[Ryythe]

Are you clipping Slug shot or just waiting an extra CD for WF? Because what your doing is putting reload in my WF spot.

Hm I think you are confusing that spot for my opener. That is actually the start of hand phase, they are worried about not having procs for wash away movement.

EDIT:

If we are talking opener, I have the most success with.

Prepull 5 ammo->GB->all my buffs->GR->HotShot->QR->Leadshot->split shot->WF/Rapidfire->Slug shot/Richochet->splitshot/reassemble->cleanshot->reload->Slugshot->splitshot->cleanshot->QR->Slugshot->Clean shot. (IDR where my second GR goes in there sorry)

[KilluaKhan]

"# 9 - Im no expert in McH but i do like to think pragmactically, so saying that, I dont really see how using pre-buffs b4 pull will net you any beneficially gains in long run, unless there is a boss encounter that has mechanics or enrages which gives you a heads up in using your buffs 6 secs before me, then I honestly still cant think of the reason you want to sacrifice 4-6 secs of buff time (20- 5) of each buff you use prepull that doesnt get to be used in actual combat.


at least read that b4 sayin an example..might as well say oh this would no be usable for the first boss in fractal dungeon (the moth boss)..forgot havent ran ex in a while


*also i should have added that this is an alternative opener because every encounter is different* do i sound crazy for stating that? so this opener works best when you have the time like faust in a1s to fit the entire rotation vs standard andwouldnt get screwed by enrage(situational) or even oppresor opener

[Ryythe]

stuff

I am in no way saying your opener is better or worse than mine. I was simply replying to the person worried about using a 5 ammo opener on AS3. I have yet to try your opener so I won't comment on it.

[KilluaKhan]

hey i didnt mean anything towards you, i "reply clicked" on riceisnice but somehow no bubble popped up..im directly answering him

[Myon88]

What you are not taking into account is you're not actually getting any more opportunities to deal damage than someone who pops all his buffs before the pull. Regardless of how long the fight is you're both hitting the boss for the exact same time.

You might be dealing damage with autoattacks and turret shots while buffing yourself in the first 6 seconds, but someone who pre-buffed will already be dealing maximum DPS from the first second. Now of course you know that, and you might say "OK, but now their buffs and opener will end 6 seconds earlier than me so we're even" - the thing is their DPS doesn't drop to 0 after this point, they just go back to the normal rotation without any buffs.

So, you're both getting the exact same opener, just at different times. The difference is 6 seconds of the normal rotation with skills being used is > 6 seconds of autoattacks while buffing.

Here is a fancy graph to illustrate:

If you want to find total damage done you would just sum the area under the graph. 5 ammo opener is irrelevant to the discussion as you can do 5 ammo openers with pre-buffing as well.

[KilluaKhan]

so this is how to quote reply! (my message)

ok i think im starting to get the picture in why people do prepull buffs, and thank you for explaining. BUT looking at that chart, is really off because ur not counting the shots in which the buffs are effecting,the (4 buff) effecting hotshot will not give you a big boost, I am going to compare to the regular opener(because i dont know what you use) , at the end of 30secs, your buffs wont last for the shots that actually matter,especially within the wildfire burst. so the only time where your dps output would be higher, is literally halfway through wildfire and then it drops, mine drops a little later but at a way higher damage output. Heres a fancier graph showing what the dmg output with how the buffs effect the damage.
*edit again because forgot to explain pic, the line that matters is the black one..which is total output of dps(top one for each graph)*


and it had to be cropped at 28secs because thats how long my rotation lasts, but if it continued then you would see the same pattern of stabilizing like standard did. Also mine cut off where it should show a spike in damage due to WF blowing off like the standard did. the little bump near end
and regarding the 6 seconds, i am only saying that in comparison to our buff difference, The normal rotation vs mine in WF is that mine is only delayed one GCD(having 4 shots b4 WF vs 3 shots)
, so in rotation wise, everything would still line up same way, except in mine, you get bonus of Autoattacks while attacking with GCD and having 2 buffs per for non clippin, which then leads to a bigger WF burst due to the fact that it will actually lasts whole duration.

One more point is that i think i saw somewhere in the forum that the only time you want GB on is if you are using abilities or for leadshot.(because shots + aa > GB + shot) so when you use GB for hotshot, you are losing a buff duration + AA because you only get to fit one in. now lets say you dont start with gb and prebuffs, instead weave within the first 3 shots and have leadshot last so that GB could be used on it and u dont lose any buff time just being in GB stance. try that and tell me if buffing your hotshot /leadshot/splitshot out of wf VS buffing Clean/slug/split WITHIN wildfire will do more n damage in long run?

TL dont wnna read? main point is that I ACTUALLY AM GETTING MORE DAMAGE OUTPUT because your not thinking about where those buffs are going towards. you are using the buff time on shots that dont matter as much. that is why i do bigger sustained damage overall. and if you did read it, then hopefully you can understand what i wrote, if not READ IT FIRST

il answer each statement too

"What you are not taking into account is you're not actually getting any more opportunities to deal damage than someone who pops all his buffs before the pull. Regardless of how long the fight is you're both hitting the boss for the exact same time."

-YES you pretty much stated my point. WE ARE HITTING BOSS FOR SAME TIME, so why waste those unbuffed shots that I got to get. 2-3 extra shots of all those buffs > 2-3 normal shots. that already is dps increase without factoring everything else ive stated.

"You might be dealing damage with autoattacks and turret shots while buffing yourself in the first 6 seconds, but someone who pre-buffed will already be dealing maximum DPS from the first second. Now of course you know that, and you might say "OK, but now their buffs and opener will end 6 seconds earlier than me so we're even" - the thing is their DPS doesn't drop to 0 after this point, they just go back to the normal rotation without any buffs."

-i dont think you know my rotation or seen video, the only non buffed shots i have are hotshot, the other two buffs are applied to second shot and all buffs are applied to EVERY SHOT AFTER , so just ask yourself whats more important to buff, hotshot or a cleanshot within wildfire?

So, you're both getting the exact same opener, just at different times. The difference is 6 seconds of the normal rotation with skills being used is > 6 seconds of autoattacks while buffing.

-again, you have clearly not read or watched my video, im not just autoattacking and buffing. I am using my GCD w/ buff, auto attack fires off every shot i take within buffing time. So i am getting 2 shots with buff weaved in AND autoattacks, not just aa. I think that if you just even look at the pictures, you would understand importance of not wasting buff time. But watch video in slow motion (.25) to see that everything works in synchronicity


*edit*
one more question ,for your second wf, do you delay your buffs to wait for wildfire or do you use them as soon as it pops? because if you delay for it, then you are losing an extra -4-6 secs just for wf to pop vs mine. And if you do use it right away then you are then wasting the buffs on shots that could be used in a bigger burst. (normal delay for hawk's eye to wildfire is that HE will pop up 10 secs prior to) for prebuffing. Mine lines up 4-5 secs before