Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[Noelzzz]

I won't deny it would have required more work and balancing. But class design is such an important part of gameplay that I say it would be worth it.

Totally got the point.

[RiceisNice]

=
...
Going back to the topic of the thread, if you had told me ARC was going to split into two jobs three years ago, my first thought would be "one will probably be longbow that stands still and aims, the other will be mobile and use a shortbow". My suggested approach could have worked for ARC by making the BRD crystal add cast times where appropriate and replace Swiftsong and Windbite with appropriately-themed songs/skills. Conversely, Ranger would be an extension of ARC as it was designed in ARR and go from there. Maybe BRD having the benefit of additional range while RNG would have to stand closer to the mob. And thus the crystal helps define the job while also dealing with the sameness that would have otherwise made itself known.

I've mentioned a while back that if they wanted to do alternate job paths for the same class (such as archer and bard/ranger, or rogue and thief/ninja), you need to introduce a polarizing ability at level 30 and onward that completely gives the class their own identity since they will still share base job classes. From every perspective (balancing, differentiating, etc), that's a nigh impossibility if they're both dps routes, or a dps/healer coming from a tank class.

Even if you were redoing their skills that change from the job crystal, their traits will have to be changed as well to accommodate or otherwise it'll be a half-assed fixture (in your example, ranger would be losing one of their DoTs to proc river of blood). And my perspective is, if we're doing that much to impement a way that a skill changes depending on your job crystal, why not just do the new jobs from the ground up as they have done with the 3.0 jobs? It gives them much more room to work with from a design perspective, it gives the job the attention it needs from a developmental stand point so it has it's own identity, and it avoids the risks/problems that come from having job crystals (especially if you aren't going to change all the skills and traits).

Sometimes you need to work smarter and not harder. And with how some of the new jobs came out on release and the glaring performance problems they have, I'd rather them not go over the top with making a relic of 1.0 work (when they have expressed multiple times that they have wanted to move away from it anyway, and it shows with the lack of crossing from ROG, and the absence of classes all together in 3.0). What is the advantage of shoving in extra jobs into a single class that gives it a better perk over a new job entirely?

[liljramos88]

square could just give it a pet and give it some nature based spells for support. so it would be like a druid or something.

[Shurrikhan]

Sometimes you need to work smarter and not harder. And with how some of the new jobs came out on release and the glaring performance problems they have, I'd rather them not go over the top with making a relic of 1.0 work (when they have expressed multiple times that they have wanted to move away from it anyway, and it shows with the lack of crossing from ROG, and the absence of classes all together in 3.0). What is the advantage of shoving in extra jobs into a single class that gives it a better perk over a new job entirely?

Mostly just that as long as they keep weapon types mostly limited to a single job each (exception: THM/CNJ), there may often be someone who wishes to their use of a given weapon in a different direction. And each ability that seems an obvious choice for that weapon (e.g. Heavy CD-dependence in bows - both because combo-ing makes less sense with such little variance or momentum in weapon motion and because that ranged classes commonly tend towards the more tactical, stored and release-on-demand deployment of their strengths) composes the class. Granted, that first bit is just another relic itself. I definitely think that XIV ought to constrain itself to far fewer rules when it comes to Class-Job relationships and Ability and Trait acquisition for each, but there is a small part that would likely like within "Class" that seems almost unavoidable for Jobs exactly like these two. Paladin vs. Commander could be another such example, or Warrior vs. Berserker. On the whole I'd prefer new "from scratch" jobs over any job touched by the current Class-Job system, but I can't deny that a revised version of that system would really make sense for a lot of my favorite job opportunities.

[Duelle]

I got bored one evening and decided to do this for fun. this is keeping in line with a comment I made earlier in the thread about the possibility of splitting classes into two jobs where possible by having job crystals modify abilities of the parent class.

Archer

Summary of changes
- Bow weapon damage un-nerfed (it'd go back to scaling as it did when ARR launched).
- Quick Nock nerfed from 110 potency to 100 potency.
- Swiftsong changed to Dash.
- Piercing Fang replacing Wide Volley as the lv50 ability.

Abilities
01 Heavy Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
02 Straight Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 140. Additional Effect: Increases critical hit rate by 10% for 20s.
04 Raging Strikes - Increases damage dealt by 20% for 20s.
06 Venomous Bite - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Venom with potency of 35 for 9s.
08 Misery's End - Delivers an attack with a potency of 190. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.
10 Shadowbind - Binds target for 10s. Cancels auto-attack upon execution. Target becomes unbound if damage is taken.
12 Bloodletter - Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
15 Repelling Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 80. Additional Effect: 10y backstep. Cannot be executed while bound.
18 Quick Nock - Delivers an attack with potency of 100 to all enemies in a cone in front of you.
22 Dash - Increases movement speed by 10%. Effect ends upon reuse or when enmity is generated. Cannot be used in battle.
26 Hawk's Eye - Increases Dexterity by 15% and guarantees that all attacks land for 20s.
30 Windbite - Deals wind damage with a potency of 60. Additional Effect: Wind damage over time with potency of 45 for 18s.
34 Quelling Strikes - Reduces enmity generated by each attack for 15s.
38 Barrage - Multiplies the number of non-critical strikes for a single-target weaponskill by 2. Additional effects added only once. 10s duration.
42 Blunt Arrow - Delivers an attack with a potency of 50. Additional Effect: Silence for 1s.
46 Flaming Arrow - Sets the ground ablaze, delivering damage with a potency of 35 to enemies that enter the flames for 30s.
50 Piercing Fang - Reduces target's resistance to piercing damage by 10%. Duration: 20s. Cooldown: 45s. Does not stack with similar effects.

Traits
08 Heavier Shot - Adds to Heavy Shot 20% chance that your next Straight Shot will deal critical damage.
14 Enhanced Dexterity
16 Enhanced Dexterity II
20 Increased Action Damage - Increases base action damage by 10%.
24 Enhanced Venomous Bite - Extends Venomous Bite duration to 18 seconds.
28 Enhanced Raging Strike - Shortens Raging Strike cooldown to 120 seconds.
32 Enhanced Dexterity III
36 Enhanced Quick Knock - Extends Quick Knock range to 12 yards.
40 Increased Action Damage II - Increases base action damage by 20%.
44 Enhanced Barrage - Increases number of non-critical strikes per single-target weaponskill to three.
48 River of Blood - Grants a 50% chance that damage over time inflicted by Venomous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer.

BRD Crystal effects:

Changed abilities:
01 Heavy Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 150. Cast time: 2.5s.
02 Straight Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 140. Additional Effect: Increases critical hit rate by 10% for 20s. Cast time: 3s.
18 Wide Volley - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to target and enemies near it. Cast time: 3s.
22 Chocobo Mazurka - Increases movement speed of all nearby party members as long as they remain within hearing distance. Effect ends upon reuse or when enmity is generated. Cannot be used in battle or with other songs.
30 Wind Threnody - Deals wind damage over time with potency of 55 for 18s. Cast time: 2.5s.

Changed traits
08 Inspiration - Adds to Heavy Shot 25% chance that your next Straight Shot or Wide Volley will be instant.
36 Enhanced Wide Volley - Increases the potency of Wide Volley to 110.
48 Lasting Resonance - Grants a 50% chance that damage over time inflicted by Venomous Bite or Wind Threnody will increase the damage of the next shot by 30%. This effect cannot happen more than once every 5 seconds.

Quested Abilities
30 Mage's Ballad - Refreshes MP of all nearby party members while lowering own damage dealt by 15%. MP is drained while singing. Refresh effect is lost if party members move out of hearing distance, and ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.
35 Foe Requiem - Reduces the magic resistance of all enemies by 10%. MP is drained while singing. Effect is lost if targets move out of hearing distance, and ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.
40 Army's Paeon - Refreshes TP of all nearby party members while lowering own damage dealt by 15%. MP is drained while singing. Refresh effect is lost if party members move out of hearing distance, and ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs.
45 Rain of Death - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to the target and all enemies near it. Additional Effect: Lowers target's evasion by 10% for 20s. Shares a recast timer with Bloodletter.
50 Battle Voice - Increases the effectiveness of all songs for 30s. Does not work with Chocobo Mazurka.
52 The Destroyer's Elegy - Reduces target's resistance to damage by 1%. Direct attacks received by target increase this amount by 1%, capping at 10% (15% under Battle Voice). Can be used with other songs. Duration: 12s. Cooldown: 60s.
54 Empyreal Arrow - Delivers an attack with a potency of 220. This skill has a cast time but is off the global cooldown.
56 Iron Jaws - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: If the target is suffering from Venomous Bite or Wind Threnody inflicted by you, the effect timer of each of those skills is reset.
58 The Scholar's Cadenza - Causes the next Wind Threnody to deal its full damage at once instead of over time or allows the activation of one song as a 15s buff. Can be used while a different song is active. Buff duration: 10s. Cooldown: 60s.
60 The Wanderer's Minuet - Allows movement while using skills with casting times. Cannot be used with other songs. Effect ends upon reuse.

Notes
- Something not mentioned in the write up but is part of the concept is that BRDs would exclusively get longbows. Longbows by design would have slower weapon speeds but higher weapon damage and 25-30y range.
- Changing River of Blood into Lasting Resonance is the first step towards dealing with the issues current WM has with BRD gameplay. The internal cooldown would further help by removing the frustration of getting a proc mid-cast.
- While I didn't implement it here, I have a mind to buff Heavy Shot and Straight Shot's base potencies, but the higher weapon damage from longbows may make this unnecessary.
- Wide Volley replacing Quick Nock via the BRD crystal would deal with the issue of having two abilities that do the same thing. The (traited) higher potency would be justified by it having a cast time.
- This version of Wanderer's Minuet would be the opposite of how it is currently implemented (allowing movement instead of restrict it). I'm thinking of having it either reduce damage or increase cast times by 10% to try to balance it out.
- Elegy is designed to be most beneficial in a group, as you'd quickly hit the 10% cap. The 12s uptime is designed to take that into account. I was thinking of adding a "decreases damage dealt" effect to it but I felt that would have made it too strong.
- Cadenza is there for burst damage or to activate a second support song if needed. You'd click on Cadenza and get the buff, and upon clicking on Threnody or on a support song you'd consume the buff.

RNG Crystal effects

Quested Abilities
30 Tar Trap - Arms a trap in target location that, when triggered by an enemy, creates a designated area that afflicts enemies that enter with Slow and Heavy. Duration: 20s. Cooldown: 30s.
35 Impacting Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 50. Additional effect: Stun for 3s. Cooldown: 45s.
40 Rapid Draw - Decreases the cooldown of all abilities by 1s. Effect ends upon reuse.
45 Paralytic Trap - Arms a trap in target location that, when triggered by an enemy, prevents that enemy from acting or moving. Effect breaks upon taking damage. Duration: 30s. Cooldown: 30s.
50 Eagle Eye Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Cooldown: 60s.
52 Aetherial Quiver - Decreases damage dealt by 25%. Causes most attacks to consume MP instead of TP, and certain attacks generate TP when executed. Effect ends upon reuse.
54 Explosive Arrow - Delivers an attack with a potency of 110 to target and nearby enemies. Enemies affected by this ability that are also standing in a Tar Trap will explode, receiving additional fire damage with a potency of 100.
56 Dual Bite - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Applies Venomous Bite and Windbite on target. Triggers the cooldown of Venomous Bite and Windbite. Cooldown: 15s.
58 Multishot - The next single-target shot will affect target and enemies near it. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 60s.
60 Sidewinder - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional effect: If the target is suffering from a Venomous Bite or Windbite effect inflicted by you, Sidewinder's potency is increased to 175 for one effect, or 250 for both.

Notes
- RNG is built around mobility and instant attacks, growing off from ARC as originally implemented.
- Something not mentioned in the write-up that is part of this concept is that RNG would exclusively get shortbows. By design, shortbows have faster weapon speeds but less weapon damage, as well as 15-20y range (RNG would have to stand closer to the mob than a caster or a BRD).
- Multishot is a bit iffy, since I'm sure someone would find the ability to AoE Venomous Bite/Windbite/Dual Bite overpowered, even despite the 60s cooldown.
- The point of Rapid Draw is to deal non-stop DPS but bottoming you out on TP very quickly.
- Aetherial Quiver is supposed to act as a sort of TP recovery stance. TP refund could be removed if natural TP regen ends up being enough.
- Some tweaks may be needed to the potencies, though I guess the best way to look at this is that RNG would be closer to BLM or NIN while BRD would be close to where it currently stands on the DPS meters.

[GavynG]

Ranger will have all archers skills not bards, do you really think that 10 jobs skill can't change how you play a class? About traits, yoshi-p in an interview said that at some point will introduce a skill tree system

It's funny. Because it's one skill that changed a job that spawned this topic and other threads to begin with.

I want Thief, I want Ranger, and I'm curious about the skill system they were talking about. Other MMOs have multiple specs per class, and having multiple jobs per class in this game would only add the variety people want so they can stop complaining about how "same-y" everything is. If other game devs can do it, so can Square.

Variety is the spice of life. Or something.

[Noelzzz]

It's funny. Because it's one skill that changed a job that spawned this topic and other threads to begin with.

I want Thief, I want Ranger, and I'm curious about the skill system they were talking about. Other MMOs have multiple specs per class, and having multiple jobs per class in this game would only add the variety people want so they can stop complaining about how "same-y" everything is. If other game devs can do it, so can Square.

Variety is the spice of life. Or something.

Exactly. And there are tons of ways to improve and adds new jobs (and specs) from these useless classes. A way to improve it, including the new extra jobs, would be like this:

Class/Job would be: class/job1 and job2 (rogue/ninja and thief, archer/bard and ranger, marauder/warrior and berserker etc)

Extra job system would be: job/ same job with a different role (Dark Knight tank/ dark knight dps, astrologist healer/ astrologist ranged dps support etc). With this kind of system they could add red mage and gives both healer/dps roles (or tank/healer)

At this point of the game they should spend more time for this kind of stuff instead of hildybrand and things like that..

[Noelzzz]

....[/HB]

Wow thats a pretty good idea! i am curious now to see how would you change the rogue for thief ninja

[RiceisNice]

It's funny. Because it's one skill that changed a job that spawned this topic and other threads to begin with.

I want Thief, I want Ranger, and I'm curious about the skill system they were talking about. Other MMOs have multiple specs per class, and having multiple jobs per class in this game would only add the variety people want so they can stop complaining about how "same-y" everything is. If other game devs can do it, so can Square.

Variety is the spice of life. Or something.

Except, WM didn't change bard that much (at least it didn't if you didn't run around like a headless chicken in 2.x) except break things that weren't already broken. Putting deliverance (exclusively a dps stance) certainly didn't change how warrior plays as much as it just added onto how they play.

Just because other games do it (and some of them don't even do it well, looking at WoW in regards to marksmanship and survival hunters, espesically when it comes to balancing because as far as different specs that are all dps [such as the ranger/bard and thief/ninja], one clearly becomes better than the other objectively) doesn;t mean SE needs to do it. You'd still have the trouble of filling in group composition dynamics if ranger is supposed to be a pure physical ranged dps, but do they compete with casters or the other ranged dps, or pump their dps to match a melee so they fight for that spot instead (which opens a whole other can of worms).

[Nibb]

Won't ever happen, they already gave BRD sidewinder, which is a staple ranger ability.