[dev1144] Effect of Core Stats on Skills Explained. Devs, We Need Answers Please

[Deus]

I don't post very often, and when I post I make it count. While my posts are thorough to the point of tedium, I ask your patience. I've seen a lot of chatter around the new stats and some sloppy tests that are compelling but need better precision. My goal is to establish what we know now, do some simple tests to figure out more, and highlight the areas where Developers and our helpful community reps should step in to make this game's obscure stat system more accessible to the average player. Please give us better stat and formula information. I'm not spending another 3 months parsing battle logs, and I haven't seen anyone else conclude anything parsing in the last 10 months.


RAW TEST DATA

Please see my blog for complete details on my test cases involving each STAT as well as a proof on how the items are rounded to support the conclusions below (removed from this post so the large amount of data does not take the focus off the conclusions):

Deus Diabolus's Blog

We know this from the devs (THANK YOU!):
STR: Attack Power
DEX: Physical Attack Accuracy/Block Rate/Parry Rate
VIT: Defense/Enhancing Magic/Max HP
INT: Attack Magic Potency
MND: Healing Magic/Magic Accuracy
PIE: Magic Evasion/Enfeebling Magic/Max MP

Now lets see what I concluded based on the effects I observed in the status menu while equipping full ring sets and additional gear stat bonuses:


CONCLUSIONS

4 STR = ? Attack Power
4 VIT = ? Defense, 1 Enhancing Magic, 4 Max HP
4 DEX = ? Physical Attack Accuracy, ? Block Rate, ? Parry Rate
4 INT = 1 Attack Magic Potency
4 MND = 1 Healing Magic, 1 Magic Accuracy
4 PIE = 1 Magic Evasion, 1 Enfeebling Magic, 4 Max MP


1) Higher tier stats (such as Magic Accuracy) increase by 1.0 due to a 4.0 increase in the corresponding core stat. If you look at the increases as a whole, you can see they converge around 4. The rounding test case also confirms this.
2) Higher tier stat fractions are modified by ROUNDING UP at .50001 to .99999, and DOWN .00000 to .50000 based on the core stat increase. Look at the case in my blog where the starting stat was 389.0 with the case of Rounding.
3) Prior to 1.19 only changing your status allocation would seem to provide benefits. Now gear bonuses finally provide benefits. Matsui, thank you for making gear fun again!
4) Bonuses with respect to accessories AND dated gear AND 'new' gear have the same effect.
5) Bonuses with respect to innate gear bonuses VS Materia bonuses have the same effect.
6) The effects of STR on Attack, VIT on Defense, DEX on Accuracy, DEX on BlockRate, DEX on ParryRate either do not exist or are not observable in the status menu. Experimentation and parsing are necessary to establish the effects. See theories below for a possible explanation.

Pray the DEVs have mercy on us and provide us an explanation on the fully scaled effects of these parameters so we do not have to theorize and parse.


THEORIES

1) The effect of STR and VIT is not shown because the damage formula factors in STR, VIT, attack, defense, Gear DMG, and Gear DEF is a complex formula. Square Enix decided to not show the effect at all so that players did not make the mistake of assuming a simple relationship. The following items may or may not be true and may indicate a complex damage formula.
-- Adding Defense via VIT or via Materia has the SAME effect point for point as adding Defense via new armor (lets call this Innate Defense on gear description main section). Should we bother HQing armor or just add a Defense materia a million times to a NQ armor until it sticks?
-- Adding Attack via STR or via Materia has the SAME effect point for point as adding Attack via a new weapon (lets call this Innate Damage on gear description main section). Should we upgrade our weapon to one with higher Innate Damage, or just add Attack materia a million times until it sticks?
2) The effect of stats on Evasion may also be hidden for the same reason, so that players do not assume a simplistic formula. Note how Evasion no longer appears on the gear description main section at all after 1.19, aside from the 'bonuses' subsection. Also note how Magic Attack and Evasion DO have simple relationships to the stats (defined above). This may be because Attack, Defense and Evasion use complex formulas but the magic parameters do not. Or it just may be a glaring omission that these stats do not have an observable effect.
3) To repeat this KEY point, the Innate Damage rating on Weapons and Innate Defense rating on armors MAY be different factors in the damage formula beyond their contribution to the global Attack and Defense ratings shown on the status screen. DEV clarification on this item would dramatically simplify our perception of the damage formula.
4) Armor part targeting and breaking may effect damage.
5) Mob to player orientation (front,back,side) no longer results in more damage. This bonus was abolished in 1.19 per patch notes.

These theories will only be brought to light with empirical experimentation and log parsing. See my other blog post on how to perform these experiments.

OR if the DEVs had mercy on us all, they will provide the formula or at least explain these parameters.


WHY WE NEED ANSWERS FROM THE DEVS

Being able to compare parameters is important! Here are two examples of why we need a breakdown of the relationships between STR, VIT, Attack, Defense, Innate weapon Damage, Innate Armor Defense, Evasion, etc.

1) Consider these two items. They are the best all-purpose caster class pants.
Sorcerer's Tights DEF86 Attack Magic Potency : +10, Int : +5, Vit : +2 (No Materia) *RARE/EX*
Felt Gaskin's (Brown) DEF82 MP : +24, Vit : +4, Pty : +4 (MND+PTY Materia)

Now that we know 4 INT = 1 Attack Magic, we would need +40 INT to make up for the 10 Attack Magic Potency difference. So there's no point in using INT+PTY or INT+MND materia on the second pants since we wont be using those for nuking at all. We will add MND+PTY only so that way they can be used for this purpose instead of nuking:
Healing Magic, Magic Accuracy, Magic Evasion, Enfeebling Magic, Max MP

We can make sets of gear that specialize for certain situations, but without a way to compare the unknown attributes (Innate Weapon Damage, STR, Attack, Evasion, Defense, and Innate Armor Defense values) we are left guessing what gear or materia to use for what purpose, and wasting time and money melding only to end up having a different effect than we desired. Let us know quickly before we waste any more resources.

2) Next consider these two items. They are the best all-purpose hats for Attack Magic CON+THM nuking:
Felt Cavalier's Hat (Brown) DEF:57 Int : +3, Pty : +5, Attack Magic Potency : +6
Mask of the Mortal Hex DEF:52 Attack Magic Potency : +20, Wind Resistance : +10 (No Materia melding possible) *RARE/EX*

Now that we know 4 INT = 1 Attack Magic, to make up for the difference of 14 Attack Magic Potency, we would need an additional 14*4 = 56 INT. Since the hat already has 3 that means 53 INT. Probability of melding a +17 materia to a +15 is about 22%, then the third would be about 8%. That is a less than 2% chance to add 3 materia which probably will only go up to 50 INT at most unless you have an even lower success rate. Assuming the ONLY effect on your spell damage is the Magic Attack contribution of this added INT (it's possible INT may have some other profound effect in and of itself), you are doing all this melding and item breaking and still won't even touch the Mask of the Mortal Hex.

Why do we have a materia system at all if it's not going to produce the best gear? In this case we might as well move the ability to put INT materia on some other gear slot. Fine, whatever, at least we have one less gear to not waste time and gil with the materia system. At least in this case we can compare the two items side by side. We CAN'T say the same for ANY gear with respect to Innate Weapon Damage, STR, Attack, Evasion, Defense, and Innate Armor Defense values. We have no idea which gear would be better, and are looking at the prospect of wasting days melding and millions of Gil.


IN CLOSING

Please LIKE this post if you want the Devs to come forward with SCALABLE formulas of what ALL the parameters do for comparison purposes so we can determine which gear is best for different situations, saving us ridiculous amounts of time, gil, and disappointment. The status and materia systems are currently far too complex AND obscure with regard to optimization and should be more accessible to everyone given the huge demands of forbidden materia craft.

[giottoV]

wow you do make it count.

[Deus]

Word on the street is there is no core stat affecting Evasion. Seriously? Talk about inconsistency. I guess the PUG class is dead in the water as far as tanking and optimizing damage output for Weaponskills that proc via Evasion. I guess there is always gear traits and the Evasion materia.

[Deus]

I'm seeing a lot of folks are echoing the concerns outlined above related to wanting to observe the effects of adding STR > Attack, VIT > Defense, etc. Additionally knowing what the deal is behind Magic Craft vs Craftsmanship. I know an official response to this was once "some things are better left unexplained". Devs, It's fine if you don't spell EVERYTHING out but please give us the simplest form of measurement so we have more options than just parsing. At least reflect stat changes in the menus and give us a rough idea how the parameters and their relationships are used behind the curtain.

[REDace0]

Word on the street is there is no core stat affecting Evasion. Seriously? Talk about inconsistency. I guess the PUG class is dead in the water as far as tanking and optimizing damage output for Weaponskills that proc via Evasion. I guess there is always gear traits and the Evasion materia.

The recent dev post on stats confirms that physical evasion only scales with level. That being said, I get plenty of evades on my 30PGL wearing the L25 Velveteen Shirt set (Turban, Shirt, Fingerless Gloves, Sarouel, Crakows), so proper itemization could be key to PGLing.

[Hachiko]

I don't really understand how it can possibly take 4 STR = 1 Attack Power. (Or do you mean 4 STR = 1 Damage?)

If you look at materia, STR materia IV is ~16 str. While Heaven's Fist materia is ~26-30 Attack Power.

If STR materia is only 1/4 of a single attack power as far as damage output goes, that would make the attack power materia a whopping 8 times more effective than the strength materia. I.E. virtually securing it as the ONLY materia suitable for damage dealing. Something doesn't seem right with it.

[Bluetaro]

I don't really understand how it can possibly take 4 STR = 1 Attack Power. (Or do you mean 4 STR = 1 Damage?)

If you look at materia, STR materia IV is ~16 str. While Heaven's Fist materia is ~26-30 Attack Power.

If STR materia is only 1/4 of a single attack power as far as damage output goes, that would make the attack power materia a whopping 8 times more effective than the strength materia. I.E. virtually securing it as the ONLY materia suitable for damage dealing. Something doesn't seem right with it.

Hachiko, the reason why attack doesn't trump strength despite needing 4 STR for every 1 attack is that the equations regulating damage done is affected in other ways. The damage we do is not simply drawn from one stat such as Attack.

In FFXI the "damage floor" was typically calculated by the player's STR and placed against the monsters VIT. The difference would affect the base damage you were able to do versus a monster.

Once you knew the base damage you could inflict, you then had to calculate the player's attack versus the monsters defense rating. This allowed you to modify the base damage by some multiplier.

That's kind of how FFXI worked but of course they had a lot more factors thrown in to compute the final damage (weapon damage for example, STR and Attack caps, etc).

I would imagine FFXIV is adopting their damage equations similar to what FFXI had. To be able to predict what kind of damage we can expect we'd have to throw in ALL the factors that influence it, which can include weapon damage, player level, elemental bonuses, STR caps and attack caps etc etc, the list can go on. I think it'd be great if SE can help us delineate that list of factors out a bit more.

+1 to the OP

[Deus]

I don't really understand how it can possibly take 4 STR = 1 Attack Power. (Or do you mean 4 STR = 1 Damage?)

I mean 4 STR = completely unknown or '?' "Attack Power". As explained in the post, the effect of STR on Attack, VIT on Defense, and DEX on accuracy, block rate, and parry rate are completely unknown because the menu does not reflect stat changes for those attributes. The only way to find out the effect (if it even exists) is parsing and asking the devs to come forward with the most basic form of metrics.

[Deus]

In FFXI the "damage floor" was typically calculated by the player's STR and placed against the monsters VIT. The difference would affect the base damage you were able to do versus a monster.

Once you knew the base damage you could inflict, you then had to calculate the player's attack versus the monsters defense rating. This allowed you to modify the base damage by some multiplier.

I have the same assumptions regarding the FFXIV damage formula as it relates to the FFXI formula. My post on the ZAM forums (linked in my blog) goes into more detail. The basics are you have a core component YourSTR minus MobsVIT, which is then influenced by the Weapons Damage rating (could be a multiplier or a constant added on). Then you have a scalar or multiplier which is YourAttack divided by MobDefense. Most often a high MobVIT means a high MobDEF. But consider the case against a low rank mob where your STR is very high and MobVIT is very low. You then proceed to do several Attack buffs and deal ridiculous high damage compared to not using those Attack buffs. Your damage may be even 300% difference. Then consider a high rank mob where its VIT is so high your STR can barely touch it and you do very little damage. You then proceed to do several attack buffs, and you still barely scrape the mob. It may have only increased damage by 10%. This is what I experienced in FFXI.

The Devs told us "STR = Attack Power". Whether this means STR CONVERTS into the Attack RATING as we know it in the menu and on materia may or may not be the case. It may be ITS OWN VARIABLE in the damage equation, NOT converted into the Attack variable beforehand. Another potentially independent factor in the equation is the weapons' innate Damage rating. The Damage rating may also be ITS OWN VARIABLE in the damage equation, or could potentially also be converted beforehand into the menu's Attack rating.

If the devs would confirm basic relationships like this, we would be much further along being able to compare the benefits of adding Attack+ versus STR+ materia, when to upgrade weapons vs adding materia, how to figure out what is the best weapon for high and low rank mobs, and deciding if Ifrit weapons are worth it at all since you can't add materia...

[Sephrick]

In regards to the questions of "how much STR do I need to increase my attack?" and "Well, in FFXI this is how it worked!" type of comments; FINAL FANTASY XIV works entirely differently and doesn't use the same system where (for example) 2STR = 1 attack. STR+ X is used to calculate your damage output so you won't see a change in other parameters by simply adding on more STR.

This is from another thread