Thread: (Un)Official Summoner Feedback Thread [3.0 Edition]

Hello there, fellow summoners.

It's been nearly two years since I've started a thread on these forums, and funnily enough it's with regards to the same subject matter. It’s been a little more than a month since release. More and more summoners are reaching level 60, mastering our new tool kit, and developing a feel for what's great, and what's not so great about the new and improved summoner.

There have been a number of great changes for summoner, but I'd like to think there's always room for improvement. As the game continues to receive updates, a job cannot remain stagnant. And after giving it much thought, I decided to create a new feedback thread for arcanists and summoners to start thinking about how we’d like to see the job improved moving forward to 4.0 and beyond.

Before we get started, I'd like to make one request of all those who come here to post, as I did in my last thread:

Please keep discussion civil, and be respectful to your fellow posters.

This thread is for feedback. There are no trolls, white knights, black knights, derps, etc. here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's okay to disagree, but please no attacking or provocative language. If you see a response to your post that seems to be inviting unnecessary arguing, I strongly urge you to ignore it. If you see a post whose ideas seem absolutely preposterous, and you can’t come up with a civil way to respond to it, I strongly urge you to ignore it.

With that said, I'd like to offer up a few points mostly concerning the Egi, and their relation to the summoner. Warning: Lots of text.

Aesthetics

The appearance of the Egi has always been a point of contention even as far back as the beta test when the job was first revealed. There have been myriad suggestions for how to address the issue (for those that consider it to be one). There are also, unfortunately, certain presumptions commonly made when someone suggests changing their appearance. Such as:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

SMN can not have bigger/more defined pets/actual Primal summon. Imagine if one summoned a full-sized Ifrit during any Binding Coil Turns.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

No one needs giant summons floating around everywhere, and also it would be pretty odd to have giant summons and have them be as weak as they are.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

You guys are trying to create a visual nightmare. Please think about these things further instead of just saying oh we need bigger summons.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Person A: "Hey I like the Egi designs! How about you?"
Person B: "OH MY GOD. THEY ARE DISGUSTING. JUST LOOK AT THE POTATO-EGI, THE CHILI PEPPER AND WET NOODLE."
Person C: "Oh my god, I know right? They need to change it. Make them bigger!
Person D: "But lore.."
Everyone: "SHUT UP YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER. LET US SUMMON FULL SIZED PRIMALS. MRGRGR. SE FIX IT."

I can't speak on behalf of anyone other than myself, but I would like to make clear that I am not asking for this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5IxbwAyzK4

Nor am I asking for this.

I would even go so far as to say this is still too much.

So what am I asking for? Well, I'm no graphics design wizard, so I can't whip up an amazing photoshop example, but let's start with the benchmark for Heavensward.

Although that model still seems admittedly too large for practical use (in my opinion), upon seeing this image, many players were excited, convinced that the Egi—or at the very least, Ifrit-Egi—were going to be made larger. If anything, I would take this as proof that it can be done. After playing the game and leveling to 60, however, it's plain to see this supposed change was not true.
(I'm personally of the belief that they increased its size in the trailer for promotional purposes, but that's a horse of a different color.)

A personal gripe that I've had with the Egi as they are now, is not necessarily their lack of detail, but the wasted space their design creates. Take a look at the image below.

My character is just a lalafell, but that model is the tallest lalafell possible, and the character is still able to fit entirely under Ifrit-Egi. That's a lot of retail space that could have been put toward a model, possibly with more detail.

This next image better sums up what I would have considered closer to ideal in terms of size. I take no credit for its creation, as it was put together by another forum goer during the 2.0 beta.

Scaling the Egi up slightly, and setting it to float lower to the ground would solve some of the matter regarding wasted retail space, and would at the very least make it less of an obstruction in a party setting. In short, I personally believe something closer in size to a hyur model (NOT a fully sized primal) rather than a lalafell model would have been ideal.

I'd like to also mention that changes of this nature are not without precedent. Although it happened in the previous iteration of this game, the 1.16 patch in March 2011 increased the size of monsters in the world because people were disatisfied with their appearance. The following month, patch 1.17 increased the size of spell and action effects.

As for detail? Well, with the glamour system coming there's no telling what they will do, but if I had to make a suggestion, I would look no further than The Navel.

Bear in mind this isn't in regard to their size, but their detail. Their coloring seems closer to that of Titan, and they have a more gritty, earthy feel to them, which I personally think is more aesthethically pleasing.

There's no telling what will happen with the glamour system. However, if they plan on adding more than just carbuncle skins, I suppose now is as good a time as any to give the developers ideas, within reason.

Egi Actions and Mechanics

Now we've reached the nitty gritty of my post—the Egi and what they bring to the table. Before I begin, I'd like to make clear that, while I have always been a proponent of making meaningful changes to the Egi, I am not in favor of a system akin to Final Fantasy 11 where the summon does all of the work, or any previous iteration of Final Fantasy where the party stands back for a five minute cutscene, eating popcorn while a deity of unfathomable power lays waste to the squirrels of Black Shroud. I also do not see a need for more pets.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

It's not about pet quantity as much as it is about pet quality. I don't care how many pets I have as long as I have more than one to choose from where each is viable in most fights.

The pet needs more interaction with the player.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Why do people use Ifrit over Garuda when the boss is mainly stationary?

He deals more damage.

There's no complexity, at all. Right now we have 3 pets: Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit. Titan tanks things and is largely useless in everything that isn't solo content (except Ramuh EX before they changed it). Garuda is a ranged DPS that....... does damage from range. Ifrit is a physical DPS that...... does damage from melee.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Why do we have 2 DPS pets when they just give each other competition? Either have the DPS pets specialize in something or make 1 a support pet instead.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

I actually want the pets to get better and have new abilities while improving the job itself by giving more power to the caster. The more power you give to your pet the less your gonna get in terms of control.

A few excerpts from the myriad back and forth discussions on the subject of summoner around these forums, but I feel the encompass my thoughts on how the Egi function in tandem with the player. Or rather, how they don't.

The summoner itself is in a good place right now with the addition of the skills gained after level 50. The Egi, while they did receive a number of much needed adjustments (receiving the effect of foods and potions, accuracy changes, etc.), I feel their ability to compliment the summoner has been neglected. After hearing that they intend to take summoner in a different direction, one that focuses on abilities given to the caster and not the pet, I wonder how far they will go to sweep pets under the carpet and retune summoner in coming updates and expansions.

But let's say, hypothetically, they want to give the Egi a little love in 4.0. What can be done to improve the quality of pets? I imagine they would need to do at least two things:

1. Give the Egi more specialized roles (not necessarily adding more Egi).
2. Improve the ease with which we can switch between Egi in a given encounter.

Please note that none of the ideas I suggest here are to say, "I want these changes right now!!!" But if there comes a time for Egi to have serious adjustments, these are things I think would make things more interesting.

Defining Egi Roles

So let's take a look at the Egi as they are now, and how their roles could be defined a bit more.

Titan-Egi
+ Higher HP than other Egi.
+ Two attacks with increased enmity to take hate.
+ Has one cooldown to increase defense against enemies.
- Has difficulty taking hate when summoned mid-combat.
- Has difficulty keeping hate on multiple targets taking area damage.

Titan is obviously meant to be the meat shield of the three pets. When used at the start of a fight, it's quite easy for Titan to keep hate on a single target using its two enmity building attacks. However, its inability to quickly take hate mid-combat, or to hold hate on multiple targets would lead me to suggest adjusting Titan to specialize in keeping the attention of a single target.

Suggested Skill Adjustments
・Change Mountain Buster from a weak area attack to a provoke skill.
Mountain Call
Gesture threateningly, maximizing enmity in target.
Recast: 60s

・Add increased enmity to Landslide, maintaining two attacks with increased enmity.
Landslide
Deals earth damage with a potency of 70.
Additional Effect: Stun
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Recast: 40s

Naturally, Titan's stats would need to be adjusted in such a way that, while it can reliably take the attention of a single target, it's not desirable to the point where it can replace an actual tank for prolonged periods in a party (e.g. tanking Ramuh Extreme). As summoners continue to grow in strength, more reliable single target enmity would also help when soloing for those rare occasions where you burst enough to take hate away from Titan. These are by no means simple adjustments, but they would go a long way to making Titan a more specialized tanking pet.

Garuda-Egi
+Attacks from a distance.
+Has an area attack that's relatlively easier to target with than Ifrit's (although their radius is the same)
+Can increase the duration of Bio, Bio II, and Miasma by 15 seconds.
-Has a knockback attack that can become bothersome in party play.

Garuda is usually the go-to Egi when dealing with groups of trash mobs, with its easy to target Aerial Slash and contagion to extend the duration of DoTs to be used in conjunction with Bane. I honestly have no real qualms with the way Garuda functions save for its Shockwave skill (knockback). Not only is the cooldown incredibly long, but knocking back an enemy is generally disruptive to party play, even if there is benefit to interrupting an enemy attack. How can we adjust this one flaw in an otherwise good Egi? I was scratching my head on this for the longest time, but then an answer dawned on me, and Neverreap confirmed that it can be done. If we want Garuda to interrupt enemies, do they have to be knocked back?

Suggested Skill Adjustment

・Change Shockwave from knockback to knockup and reduce the recast time.
Shockwave
Deals wind damage with a potency of 50 (reduced from 90).
Additional Effect: Knock-Up
Recast: 60s (reduced from 90)

In this example, I opted to reduce the potency of Shockwave in the spirit of making the Egi more specialized. Since Garuda lends itself to helping with area damage, it's only fair that it's single target attack is meant more so to support than to be offensive. Nevertheless, changing the knockback to knockup would allow players to dust off this skill and use it more often in the same manner that players use stun.

Ifrit-Egi
+Attacks at melee range.
+Radiant shield now helps the party reflect physical damage.
-Has trouble keeping up with mobile targets.
-More prone to taking area damage than garuda (i.e. cleaves and point blank area attacks around the target)

While its role as the go-to Egi for single targets is refuted by some, I think it's fair to say that with Garuda being a clear winner for assisting with area damage, Ifrit should excel at single target damage. Furthermore, it would help to give Ifrit a way to overcome its difficulty in following mobile targets.

Suggested Skill Adjustment

・Adjust Crimson Cyclone to become a gap closer for Ifrit.
Crimson Cyclone
Rushes target and delivers an attack with a potency of 105.
Range: 20y (increased from 3y)
Additional Effect: Stun (unchanged)
Recast: 40s (unchanged)

・Change Flaming Crush to a potent single target ability.
Flaming Crush
Delivers an attack with a potency of 105.
Additional Effect: Sears the flesh of enemies infected by Bio, Bio II, and Miasma, dealing additional damage with a potency of 95 for each effect.
Recast: 60s (changed from 30s)

As always, these are just personal opinions and ideas, but I think a gap closer akin to monk's Shoulder Tackle would greatly improve Ifrit's ability to keep up with enemies, which is the reason for my suggested change Crimson Cyclone. Flaming Crush, however, is an idea that came to mind based on Garuda's Contagion ability. As many of you already know, Contagion increases the duration of Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on an enemy by 15 seconds. With the server checking these statuses for damage every three seconds, this gives an extra 200 potency to Bio, 100 potency to Miasma, and 175 potency to Bio II, resulting in an extra 375 potency over the course of 15 seconds. Damage over time is summoner's forte, but there comes a time when you need damage "right now." In the case of a single target, it seemed fitting to essentially give Ifrit the inverse of Contagion. Of course, it would be strange to have an attack that potentially does no damage, so I left the base of 105 as is. With Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on a target, however, Ifrit would deliver an attack with 375 potency, essentially making Flaming Crush a frontloaded Contagion.

Earlier I mentioned it would also be beneficial to have a way to easily switch between Egi during a given encounter. As I’m sure they’re not going to change any of our current skills (I’m looking at you, Tri-Bind), I’d like to suggest a new skill that could be introduced in 4.0.

Primal Calling
Summon, Summon II, or Summon III can be cast immediately at reduced cost.
Cast: Instant
Recast: 30s

The utility of this skill is pretty self-explanatory. Having the ability to switch between Egi without taking a serious hit to MP could potentially allow for more interesting gameplay, depending on how Egi are changed in the future, if they’re changed at all.

4.0 and Beyond: The Future of the Egi

To wrap up my ramblings on the Egi, I'd like to consider the possibility of new Egi actions (note: not new Egi, just actions). The suggestions above, or anything remotely like them, are not something I would expect to see prior to the next expansion. With that said, one cannot help but wonder what will become of the Egi in light of Yoshi-P's statements on the direction they want to take summoner. That being, that it would be more interesting in the long run if they fleshed out the actions of the caster rather than add new Egi.

I'm going to make the assumption, if only for a moment, that in some strange fantastical bizarro universe they decide to add on to the Egi in some fashion. A number of players (not necessary some invisible majority or minority) were convinced that the Egi would receive new abilities in 3.0, and unfortunately that was not the case. While I was not surprised at the lack of new abilities for the Egi, it is my belief that, with the current system, it isn't possible to add new Egi abilities that function like Flaming Crush, Contagion, Mountain Buster, etc. The reason for this is the use of the Pet Hotbar.



While it is possible to make a customized hotbar with pet actions on them, the actual pet hotbar is very limited. The actions and commands on it cannot be rearranged. Furthermore, all pet actions are on a shared cooldown. The only exception to this is the trademark skill of the Egi triggered by Enkindle, but even those all share Enkindle's cooldown. These trademark skills cannot be activated directly, but Inferno, Aerial Blast, and Earthen Fury can all be found within the Pet tab of the Actions & Traits menu.

If we are to see new Egi actions, I believe one of two things needs to happen:

A. Any new Egi skills introduced must have an intermediary skill (e.g. Enkindle) to activate them.

B. The Pet Hotbar needs to be revamped to allow some degree of customization.

Adding actions via option A is pretty straightforward, so I'd like to share a few thoughts on hypothetical option B. I think revamping the hotbar would allow for more interesting play in the long run. As I said earlier, I'm no photoshop wizard, but I do have a knack for powerpoint.

Imagine, if you will, that the Pet tab of the Actions & Traits menu was divided up into sections like so:

General Pet Actions

- Here you would find the auto attack for each Egi, and possibly their basic commands (e.g. Sic, Obey, Away, Place, etc.)

Additional Pet Actions 2, 3, and 4:

- In these subsequent sections, you would find a list of actions for all Egi that would have to share cooldowns within each category as they do now.

Additional Pet Actions 2, 3, and 4:

Using Garuda-Egi as an example, let’s say it receives three new non-auto attack actions, giving it a total of seven: Auto-Attack, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2.

The goal here is to let players choose which Garuda-Egi skill from each category of actions they want to use. The result is several possible combinations of actions.

Auto-Attack, B1, C2, D1
Auto-Attack, B1, C1, D2
Auto-Attack, B2, C1, D2

I think the idea here is pretty clear.

This setup is under the assumption that the developers would find it too unbalanced to change the shared cooldown. As new Egi skills are introduced, players would have to choose three skills—one from category 2, 3, and 4—to customize their Egi. If they're adamant about keeping the hotbar as it is, this would at least help us circumvent the restriction of the pet hotbar to a small degree, while also offering players a bit more customization with the Egi.

While still on the topic of customization, I must mention one last pipe dream: the ability to choose which skills are and are not used when using the Sic command. With pets as they currently are, for example, it would be a boon if you could set Ifrit to not use Radiant Shield unless instructed to manually, while still using its other attacks as soon as they’re available.

Summoner Actions and Traits

This section will be brief since, honestly, I think the way summoner performs is pretty perfect as it is.

The only thing I would consider adjusting, if anything, is the duration of the Aethertrail Attunement effect. This is purely with regards to playing through dungeons, but nobody is perfect, and there may come a time where it's not possible to stack up three Aethertrail Attunement to blow through Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare before a group of enemies are defeated and you move to the next group. Or perhaps you’d rather save it for the next group.

My only suggestion would be to adjust the duration of this effect, as removing the timer would likely be too overpowered.

I had other ideas, but if I had spent too much time pondering them this post would never make its way to the interwebs.
Feel free to pick apart my ideas, or supply some of your own and we’ll get the ball rolling. If you know of any bugs, or anything that doesn’t seem to be working as intended, feel free to add it and I’ll update this post. Hopefully we can give the developers some good feedback to improve on summoner in the future.

Miscellaneous Summoner Issues
・An issue wherein Enkindle “misfires,” wasting the three-minute cooldown.
・An issue wherein DoTs do not display when more than thirty status effects are placed on an enemy. This can also happen when “Display only detrimental effects you inflict.” is enabled.

Unconfirmed Issues
・Stat scaling with the Egi. (I’ve heard there is an issue with scholar fairies.)

Useful References / Discussion Threads
Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide
The 3.0 Summoner - An Extensive Guide by Hai Hai (Reddit)

Original Thread (English): (Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread
Original Thread (Japanese): 召喚士に関するフィードバックを書くスレ

Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Summoner Feedback Thread (snipped)

This is a well thought and comprehensive post and I think it sums up well the kind of changes I personally would like to see in SMN.


Egi : Game Play

It's funny I was actually looking at Youtube vids of FFXI's SMN the other day, for nostalgia's sake. But I came across a series of two videos that showcased the Avatars and how they played. I will include a link below:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qfP2D7ApoI
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pPiYth8DwE

What I found interesting about these vids is that it shows that actually the Avatars and Egi work/play in a similar way. Both Egi and Avatar attack on auto, and both also utilize the same signature moves; XI's Ifrit has Inferno, Flaming Crush, Burning Strike. Just like his XIV counterpart. XI's Garuda and Titan also share numerous abilities with their XIV counterparts. Furthermore if the Egi are put on obey then the SMN has full control over these abilities just like in XI.

The only difference between the Avatars and the Egi, is that the Avatars also had support abilities such as slow and haste, as well as BLM abilities such as Fire II, Stone II, Aero II/IV. However notice in the vids how the SMN just stands there the entire time whilst the Avatar does everything. So from this we could argue that for XIV's SMN, SE opted to remove the additional abilities of the Avatars (Slow, Haste, BLM spells) in order to give SMN the DoT's and other abilities, allowing them to have a more dynamic role in XIV.

In short, I think these vids show that the Avatars/Egi are not all that different from each other. Also notice how the Avatar's 2hour ability (AKA Enkindle) is no more flashier than the Egi Enkindle. Personally I think at the moment, what really needs to be changed about the Egi game play, is the A.I and how unresponsive they currently are when on obey. Of course totally new Egi abilities in the future would be awesome, however right now I would rather the Egi be more responsive.

Egi : Visual Design

As far as the Egi design goes, I think your post summed that up pretty well.

Personally I think the concept behind the visual is good, but the execution was poor due to rushed models.

Ifrit:



It is clear that Ifrit was given the most attention during development. His model is actually rather nice as it represents the Primal really well, replicating a number of icons, such as the horns, spiked chin, shoulder horns/spikes, and the over all silhouette. Not only that but his arms are fully formed and articulated.

Titan:



Now when we look at Titan, although he is identifiable as Titan by replicating icons such as the top knot. The model itself is clearly very rushed and rough around the edges (excuse the pun) Notice how the arms are not fully formed. Even the hands do not have individual digits and look like oven gloves (unlike Ifrit). Even Titan's head is underdeveloped, being nothing more than a simple bump with two slots for eyes.

Garuda:



Garuda is an interesting one though because as a separate model it is actually rather nice. It is a strong design of a pretty green bird. However it is a rather poor representation of the Primal, as it bears little resemblance. She should have had more humanoid features.

I think really what the Egi need, specifically Titan and Garuda are a redesign. They need more polished well defined models, that represent the Primal well. Of course they can never be as detailed as the Primals, as the allocated poly count between the Egi and Primals is vastly different. The Egi on average will have around a maximum poly count of 1k to 2k. Where as the Primals will have a poly count of around 20k to 30k. So for this reason alone the Egi design will always have to be simplified down. I do agree that there is room for the Egi to be slightly larger, especially if their center of gravity was lowered as you suggested.

Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Of course, we also have to consider how strong are the attacks from this pet, if it has any at all. I would imagine it would have to be low, offset by the benefit of the buffs it offers. And assuming we cannot summon two pets at the same time, would it serve as more competition for the throne that Garuda and Ifrit currently fight for. Another reason why a skill such as my proposed "Primal Calling" would be useful, allowing us to switch at reduced cost.

But enough of my rambling. Care to share any thoughts on a support pet?

I think a potential support Egi would be rather cool, and gives SE a way to introduce a 4th Egi type that actually does fill a unique role. However as we know the Egi provide a good chunk of a SMN's DPS (20%-30%?) and since a support Egi would in all likelihood not provide any DPS, this loss would have to be made up. Of course this can be achieved by the Egi having a physical/magical damage up buff. Another issue would be, is a support Egi treading too much on the toes of SCH? After all SMN is a DPS role first and foremost.

And I guess the other big question is what Egi would actually suit a specified support role? Based on the current known Primals the only one that really suits the role would be Phoenix. Unless of course SE flesh out the lore on Siren and make her a kind of Lesser Primal, as she would be perfect as a support Egi! Of course SE could just introduce a new Primal to fit the role also.