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  1. #91
    Player
    Alacran's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    739
    Character
    Maeror Montealvo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Speaking as a future DRK, who wanted the job as a a dps. The name i feel dictates the role, a Dark Knight wears heavy armor. It only makes sense that a Knight fits the role of tank. That being said a Samurai (to serve), for whom all can agree was first and foremost honor bound, would NEVER attack an enemy from behind. Honor kept them using the sword after guns were introduced to their lands. Honor demanded their lives should they break the Bushido code, and facing an enemy Honorably was the greatest service, duty, any Samurai could want. To attack from behind, to conduct ones self dishonorably was not a true Samurai's way.

    (1)

  2. #92
    Player
    Rhaja's Avatar
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    Jun 2014
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    Limsa
    Posts
    734
    Character
    Rhaja Foxtail
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Uh... You do know that's a whole lot of BS made up during WW2 right? Bushido was a loosely followed code, much like Chivalry. The first thing Samurai's were trained in was the bow, followed by a pole arm. The sword's were side arms, meant as a last resort.

    BUT if we want to follow that line of thought, give them a front positional. If they're going t be wearing heavy armor, why not make it worth it? Hell Ninja's sneak attack is a front positional.
    (3)

  3. #93
    Player
    Shougun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    5,932
    Character
    Wubrant Drakesbane
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 70
    The Samurai of war time would have attacked from behind, the Samurai of propaganda may have said they wouldn't. Though I suppose people like the one of propaganda otherwise they'd ask for a spear or a bow (which Samurai excelled at) vs a sword which was their secondary (practiced more later, but not because of being suddenly superior).

    Thats probably another part of why I want to see Samurai DD, just to reduce the amount of serious exaggeration - indestructible super perfect sword soldier (Katana was completely capable of cutting though ). Poor western knights don't get that amount of love, in fact they get anti love... lol (at least it seems to me a lot of people assume they were a bunch of dumb brutes and dumb blacksmith, both far from the truth).

    Its true that it is not really important to dispel anymore, not like we're facing a cult of Samurai trying to take over the world - but I've never been a big fan of any sort of self-gain exaggeration especially one that tends to be nationalistic. I've wondered if that is why SE frequently gives Samurai coin toss as an ability, to while keep some elements of fun romanticized Samurai but also to just say "hehe, most damaging attack depends on how much money you have" a make fun of the later period of an average Samurai.

    Prefer Sam to be DD, would not rage if it was Tank - just really hope they add some sort soul (aether) into the blade then (durability given by self, and unique construction done to contain self).
    (2)
    Last edited by Shougun; 05-09-2015 at 05:46 AM.

  4. #94
    Player
    Alacran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    739
    Character
    Maeror Montealvo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaja View Post
    Uh... You do know that's a whole lot of BS made up during WW2 right? Bushido was a loosely followed code, much like Chivalry. The first thing Samurai's were trained in was the bow, followed by a pole arm. The sword's were side arms, meant as a last resort.

    BUT if we want to follow that line of thought, give them a front positional. If they're going t be wearing heavy armor, why not make it worth it? Hell Ninja's sneak attack is a front positional.
    Never really liked using wiki as a reference but i'm being lazy today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

    Also trick attack works better from behind.
    (1)
    Last edited by Alacran; 05-09-2015 at 03:32 AM.

  5. #95
    Player
    Alacran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    739
    Character
    Maeror Montealvo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shougun View Post
    The Samurai of war time would have attacked from behind, the Samurai of propaganda may have said they wouldn't. Though I suppose people like the one of propaganda otherwise they'd ask for a spear or a bow (which Samurai excelled at) vs a sword which was their secondary (practiced more later, but not because of being suddenly superior).

    Thats probably another part of why I want to see Samurai DD, just to reduce the amount of serious exaggeration - indestructible super perfect sword soldier (Katana was completely capable of cutting though ). Poor western knights don't get that amount of love, in fact they get anti love... lol (at least it seems to me a lot of people assume they were a bunch of dumb brutes and dumb blacksmith, both far from the truth).

    Its true that it is not really important to dispel anymore, not like we're facing a cult of Samurai trying to take over the world - but I've never been a big fan of any sort of self-gain exaggeration especially one that tends to be nationalistic. I've always wondered if that is why SE frequently gives Samurai coin toss as an ability, to while keep some elements of fun romanticized Samurai but also to just say "hehe, most damaging attack depends on how much money you have" a make fun of the later period of an average Samurai.
    I actually agree with the fact over exaggeration of anything Japanese is plain silly. Anyone in a true fight would take every chance (fair or unfair) to survive. That being said the subject here is to include it in to a fantasy game, the romanticized warrior poet that served faithfully and deadly efficiently. The idea of Samurai's attacking the back side of an enemy as a dps came from the idea of a subclass of THF in FFXI, some thing even the developers did not intend, but was continued by min maxers who also gave us gear swapping...
    (1)

  6. #96
    Player
    Rhaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    734
    Character
    Rhaja Foxtail
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Alacran View Post
    Never really liked using wiki as a reference but i'm being lazy today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

    Also trick attack works better from behind.
    Uh... you do know the link you provided does state that scholars have found modern bushido, which was started as propaganda during WW2, is not the same as early bushido right?

    Also yes. Trick Attack works from behind with a debuff on the enemy. Sneak Attack does a tremendous amount of damage from the front of the enemy, which means it's possible for a DPS to get a bonus for being in front of the enemy instead of behind.

    So... I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to point out with your post? That you prefer the romanticized version of samurai more?
    (2)

  7. #97
    Player
    Shougun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    5,932
    Character
    Wubrant Drakesbane
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Alacran View Post
    I actually agree with the fact over exaggeration of anything Japanese is plain silly. Anyone in a true fight would take every chance (fair or unfair) to survive. That being said the subject here is to include it in to a fantasy game, the romanticized warrior poet that served faithfully and deadly efficiently. The idea of Samurai's attacking the back side of an enemy as a dps came from the idea of a subclass of THF in FFXI, some thing even the developers did not intend, but was continued by min maxers who also gave us gear swapping...
    oo.. Gear swapping.. *cries*.. lol

    In your view of honor does it require them to take the hits for the party? I imagine there might be a few ways to coax a DD closer to the front more often, perhaps with a way to effectively avoid cleaving attacks/damage bonus (cleave attacks being a major concern to standing in front).

    This game is definitely not real, thank goodness - not a fan of primals mind controlling me... although Garu-- nope! So its "get over"-able lol, but I do like references and nods to reality (as my own 'personal' preference). So having the entire romanticized package makes my eyebrow twitch (and the screams of fanatical "this is the truth! Best weapon to ever exist, ever! Desu!" type of fans - double twitch lol), specially in reference to the game's own reality where we already have competent craftsmen and parrying mechanics. Which sounds a bit funny "the game's own reality" but I'd at least, at least, wish for a good explanation on why the sword could take so much damage and a way to answer why not everyone turns into parrying gods (because Samurai (in games) aren't known for big obvious magics like flare, it'd have to be something spiritual - which is fine that sort of fits thematically to the later Samurai anyways, I think).

    Random example of building some sort of aether idea into mechanics might be that each use of weapon infuses the sword's capabilities, their toolset sort of becomes a game of tempo and controlling your 'life-line' through a battery aka the soul and life of your sword. You could go off tempo for extra damage or aggro, perhaps even bringing it into a cursed thirsty state- another famous thing to do with Katanas, also giving you damage mode like the other tanks get. Technically you could use the dance and tempo for DD as well but at least if tank it would be sort of an explanation along the lines of "the weapon is a reflection of your own will, its durability is yours". Just a single buff monitoring battery system is probably too easy and boring so might need to add another level there like different types of tempo abilities (initiators, filler, finisher, tempo shifting, perhaps a monk-esque system) - so in the end result it is sort of a dance and you think of it like one. Would allow balance between the slow reserved play vs the frantic explosion of steel, both a stereotype for cinema Katana (its not exclusive to that weapon, but you see it a lot in films that use it with a mix of solemn slow start interspersed with blindingly fast multi-strikes).
    (2)
    Last edited by Shougun; 05-09-2015 at 04:23 AM.

  8. #98
    Player
    Alacran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    739
    Character
    Maeror Montealvo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    I prefer it to be more in line with a traditional Samurai as opposed to a lightly armored, fast attacking, dual wielding variant more often seen in more modern representations. The idea of a Samurai issuing a challenge to his enemy is an iconic one, to see it fall in line with Ninjas, Monks, and Dragoons behind the enemy breaks that image. As for Bushido, regardless of the date the word was used the ideals that make it up existed far earlier and were the basis of modern Bushido.

    When looking at what we have currently 3 tanks (DRK, PLD, WAR), 3 healers (AST, SCH, WHM), and 6 dps (BLM, BRD, DRG, MNK, NIN, SMN), role distribution looks more than a bit off. I say Samurai (Katana) and Templar (Heavy Lance, Tower Shield) for new tanks, I say add a few more healers (i'm drawing blanks, best i have is Chemist), point being while dps will always be more popular it's already saturated in this game. Would it not be better to add Roles that are currently needed? A multitude of options, themes, and style of gameplay should not be the sole providence of dps enthusiast.
    (1)

  9. #99
    Player
    Riastrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    112
    Character
    Mercutio Montealvo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    I would personally enjoy Samurai as a tank. Not for me as I already found my tank class (Warrior). Getting those insta ques is an awesome feeling. Even more so when you get that bonus Gil. The only people that wouldn't want Samurai as a tank are those who wouldn't want to step up. Complain about Dps que times all you want, you only have human nature to blame. So... Step up.
    (0)

  10. #100
    Player
    EdwinLi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    3,773
    Character
    Edwina Li
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Riastrad View Post
    I would personally enjoy Samurai as a tank. Not for me as I already found my tank class (Warrior). Getting those insta ques is an awesome feeling. Even more so when you get that bonus Gil. The only people that wouldn't want Samurai as a tank are those who wouldn't want to step up. Complain about Dps que times all you want, you only have human nature to blame. So... Step up.
    There are other reasons than just "Step Up"

    I personally see SAM as a possible canidate for being a DPS and they would also fit into becoming the 2nd Job that uses Mail Armor.

    Then there is also the requirements people will need to be a Tank Player with having the top notch gears to keep up with the constant growing DPS rate a good amount of community develops through their tome and/or coil gears, know how to tank more than 4 mobs, Tolerance towards people who want you to do what they want, discrimination due to how other Tanks act, constant lectures about how they would be better if they were the tank, and etc.

    Beyond that playing tank roles just rewards players with faster queues and more gil from roulette.

    (I still have a bunch of other things to add the list of things Tanks must be prepared for but it is a long list of past and current experience so I'm just mentioning the basic need to know.)
    (1)
    Last edited by EdwinLi; 05-09-2015 at 05:07 AM.
    The RNG God

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