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  1. #1
    Player
    Exodus-E's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
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    Gridania
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    376
    Character
    Thosinebb Ahldhyltsyn
    World
    Ragnarok
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    Summoner Lv 80

    About House Valentione...

    Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
    Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

    Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

    If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

    What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?

    I know that Ishgard's back-story is (mostly) shrouded in mystery given their withdrawal compared to the other city-states, but still...a few answers/opinions on the matter would be nice.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Geist's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa (1.0) Ul'dah (ARR)
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    130
    Character
    Geist Geiser
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus-E View Post
    Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
    Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

    Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

    If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

    What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?

    I know that Ishgard's back-story is (mostly) shrouded in mystery given their withdrawal compared to the other city-states, but still...a few answers/opinions on the matter would be nice.
    My guess is that they've sworn fealty to one of the four High Houses and serve as its supporters.

    Or they aren't really -that- into current Ishgardian politics either. This might be because they've learned to stay away from them, or simply a consequence of Lisette dabbling into things that would register as "fluff" in harsher times (you can't pelt the Dravanian Horde with chocolates).
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player
    Chewy2nd's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Ul'dah
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    727
    Character
    Dia Lancea
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 80
    It will be interesting to see next years Valentione's day, considering we'll be in Ishgard by then, lol.
    (3)

  4. #4
    Player
    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    4,678
    Character
    Anony Moose
    World
    Excalibur
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    Arcanist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus-E View Post
    If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?
    The four on the flag are the High Houses of Ishgard, implying that there are lower families. The four High Houses are descended from the knights who stood with Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, son of Thordan, founder of Ishgard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus-E View Post
    What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones?
    Considerably less. Even House Dzemael commands slightly more power than the other three high houses (at least at the moment).

    Here are some big hints as to how the system works:

    House Dzemael is said to be lorded over by a count; since Dzemael is about as high as it gets, this may be about as high as you can go before entering Holy ranks. In 1.0, a levequst referred to a Duke - how that guy fit into it, I have no idea. Isn't Duke higher than Count?

    House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses. There's very little context about that part. It sounds like some lower houses have sworn fealty, not directly to the archbishop, but to the high houses under him. It sounds like a distinction without much meaning, but spend some with Game of Thrones and you'll figure out how important that distinction is. And a levequest did once refer to Ser Jeorge of House Martynn...
    (12)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 02-04-2015 at 06:19 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    ruskie's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    1,966
    Character
    Asny Rak'nys
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Geist View Post
    you can't pelt the Dravanian Horde with chocolates
    Says who... that thing is their biggest weakness... and their final goal... getting all that chocolate. I'm guessing they are developing a totaly irresistible recipe and are testing it on the unsuspecting populace and us unsupecting adventurers.
    (4)

  6. #6
    Player
    JeniLinsky's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Gridania
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    561
    Character
    C'mell Cordwainer
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    House Dzemael is said to be lorded over by a count; since Dzemael is about as high as it gets, this may be about as high as you can go before entering Holy ranks. In 1.0, a levequst referred to a Duke - how that guy fit into it, I have no idea. Isn't Duke higher than Count?
    In the English system of peerage it is. However, we really have no idea how the Ishgardian peerage works. For example, in the French, pre-Revolution system, all the sons of a Count would be Viscounts. It's possible that the Count we've seen is not the Lord Dzemael, but merely a lord Dzemael. It's always seemed strange to me that the heads of house of the high houses of Ishgard would personally be in the lands outside the city. It kind of seems like that would be some sort of political exile. It would make much more sense if they were simply subordinate lords in charge of the high house's forces outside the city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses.
    That's actually a nice theory, which accounts for all the evidence. Well done!
    (3)

  7. #7
    Player
    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Anony Moose
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    Excalibur
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    Arcanist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by JeniLinsky View Post
    It's possible that the Count we've seen is not the Lord Dzemael, but merely a lord Dzemael.
    My knowledge of feudalism and bastard feudalism extends naught beyond high school history and Game of Thrones, so I might as well give you the clearest line I can find if you're willing to brainstorm it, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Version 1.0 Dzemael Darkhold Guard
    A hearty hail to you, adventurer. I am Dyrstweitz, son of Dyrstweitz. I serve House Dzemael, as did my father and his father before him. Like them, I have sworn a solemn oath to protect the count's lands and holdings from any and all that would do them harm. Originally designed to provide protection against air and land attacks from the Wyrmking's horde, construction on the Darkhold began several generations ago when Count Dzemael, fifty-third of his line and lord of House Dzemael - greatest of the four high houses of Ishgard - discovered a hidden network of caves while foxing near the Nail.
    And the Duke for good measure

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream a Little Bream (1.0)
    As he does once every moon, Ishgardian noble Duke Brett V will soon be arriving in Limsa Lominsa to conduct a routine inspection of the many export and import warehouses he maintains in the thalassocracy.
    Also, Inspector Briardien is rumoured to be a baron, and Ishgard's See contains at least an Archbishop, Bishops, and Cardinals.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Shadygrove's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,280
    Character
    Alya Mizar
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus-E View Post
    Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
    Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

    Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

    If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

    What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?
    As others have said, noble not high noble.

    Little power compared to the high noble houses. Nor do they seem interested in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    .... Isn't Duke higher than Count?

    House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses....
    Yes.

    IRL a banner was a lesser noble, fedually sworn to serve, and his contingent of household troops, squires, grooms, cooks, and his knights with their own contingent. Who are his banners.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeniLinsky View Post
    In the English system of peerage it is.
    Actually there are no dukes in England. They have earls instead. But the wife of an earl is a duchess.

    Despite having a degree in this stuff I have never been able to figure that one out.
    (0)
    Last edited by Shadygrove; 02-05-2015 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Chewy2nd's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Ul'dah
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    727
    Character
    Dia Lancea
    World
    Adamantoise
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    Archer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadygrove View Post
    Actually there are no dukes in England. They have earls instead. But the wife of an earl is a duchess.

    Despite having a degree in this stuff I have never been able to figure that one out.
    There is Dukes, Prince Phillip himself is the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Andrew is the Duke of York, Prince Richard is the Duke of Gloucester, and Prince Edward is the Duke of Kent. The next in line, Prince Charles is the Duke of both Cornwall and Rothesay, Queen Elizabeth II herself is the Duke of Lancaster. Though to be fair, I only know about the Princes having second titles due to being British myself, lol.
    (1)
    Last edited by Chewy2nd; 02-05-2015 at 06:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Celvantis's Avatar
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    Nov 2014
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    30
    Character
    J'guztoph Tia
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 70
    Monarchy and nobility is kinda my thing, but everything been answered already.

    yes, Duke is the highest form of nobility. (Monarchs being royal rather then noble, theocracy aside).
    Dukes report directly to the sovereign in return for management of a area for the sovereign and under them is a complex tree of nobles who run even smaller patches of land for them.

    Normally lesser nobles report to the one above in the structure, being the bannerman as stated.

    The counts we have met thus far -may- well be bannerman to dukes in the city who control the house, and land (which most seemed to of lost anyway....) who would be bannermen to the Archbishop.

    For house Valentione, means they could be anywhere in what is a large and complex system that may well have a hundred noble houses of various ranks, but as a lesser noble (being lower then a count, and even counts are sneered at on a sovereign level) they have only the power of that rank, which is this case is near jack all.

    This does change from country to country, but the basic structure remains similar.
    Under the duke is a Marquess (which not all countries have, england doesn't but france did.) Under a Marquess, is a count or in England that being the equal rank of a Earl (which has no female form and thus is a countess.), Then Viscount and right at the very bottom of the stucture is a Baron. Normally a baron doesn't have any clout to meet with anyone of any real importance.

    Historically Knight had been linked to being a form of lower nobility under the normal structure, but has been linked more recently with being a chivalric order which seems to be the case with Ishgard.
    (2)

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