Why physical (DPS) jobs cross-classes lancer? & Implications

[Mardel]

Looking towards 3.0 classes jobs and reflecting on 2.4 ninja + other melee you to have wonder why so much LNC cross class?

Well even though SE loves to lore us, even when it shouldn't be used (LOOKING AT YOU GC-FRONTLINES), it couldn't get around one blaring issue, TP. Though it would make more sense for jobs to, at times, use another job for X-Class support skills; the current armory system hinders this. Each class is forced to learn the same amount of abilities at the same levels, white mage recently got SSII which changes it a bit, which limits the "creativity" of each job's abilities but at the same time allows them to "save resources" by not having to remake essentially the same skill for each job.

What this means is, cross class skills aren't necessarily there to give us choice/variety. They are there so SE doesn't have to recreate a the same job skill in a different flavor for each job. Thus, each DPS that needed to regain TP was given lancer sub for invigorate and monk for recovery options, second wind. Mages have a similar issue when you look at them all having swift cast but that is impart due to the lack of caster jobs.

This effects us going into 3.0 because each job will not have a base class. (Though they didn't say it couldn't access cross class skills? *check this someone*) Meaning that if they need invigorate or swift cast will they end up with that ability in a new flavor? Could this lead to SE slowly removing "cross class" by just making each dps/melee learn invigorate as they level up ((idk around lv 30?), tanks provoke, and mages swift cast at that level? Will they change it so once we hit lv 60 we get a new job stone that takes away our ability to cross class and specialize further?

What are your thoughts on this?

I thought only the new jobs that wont have classes? People in 3.0 that wants to play drg/mnk will still have to do lnc/pgl

Theres no way theyd just remove the existing classes

It's not about removing, it's about phasing them out so that the current structure remains. Like imagine if SE gave lancer a new skill to replace invigorate, replaced pld's provoke, and thm a new skill to replace swift cast. Then they gave each DoW invigorate, Tanks Provoke, and DoM swift cast. Later on we get an advanced job crystal that completely remove all the cross class abilities and grants us more job skills. See where this is going?


P.S I'll proof read this more later as I am at work, on break, and doing this mobile.

[ErzaScarlet77]

I thought only the new jobs that wont have classes? People in 3.0 that wants to play drg/mnk will still have to do lnc/pgl

Theres no way theyd just remove the existing classes

[Mardel]

I thought only the new jobs that wont have classes? People in 3.0 that wants to play drg/mnk will still have to do lnc/pgl

Theres no way theyd just remove the existing classes

It's not about removing, it's about phasing them out so that the current structure remains. Like imagine if SE gave lancer a new skill to replace invigorate, replaced pld's provoke, and thm a new skill to replace swift cast. Then they gave each DoW invigorate, Tanks Provoke, and DoM swift cast. Later on we get an advanced job crystal that completely remove all the cross class abilities and grants us more job skills. See where this is going?

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

It's not about removing, it's about phasing them out so that the current structure remains. Like imagine if SE gave lancer a new skill to replace invigorate, replaced pld's provoke, and thm a new skill to replace swift cast. Then they gave each DoW invigorate, Tanks Provoke, and DoM swift cast. Later on we get an advanced job crystal that completely remove all the cross class abilities and grants us more job skills. See where this is going?

So you're saying all Physical DPS should learn invigorate @22 / all tanks learn provoke @22 / all casters learn swiftcast @22? Makes sense when you consider everyone worth their salt will be doing that regardless.

[Mardel]

So you're saying all Physical DPS should learn invigorate @22 / all tanks learn provoke @22 / all casters learn swiftcast @22? Makes sense when you consider everyone worth their salt will be doing that regardless.

Something to that extent. This way SE does less work, in terms of "fixing" the armory system and allow themselves to eventually funnel all jobs into a singular format where there isn't any X-Class skills. While, I like the IDEA of cross class skills the reality is that the current system doesn't give us variety in our skills so why bother with it?

[DoctorPepper]

Who's to say that the new jobs won't have special skills they learn through quests that can't be cross classed but still have other "cross class/job" abilities in order to meet the current structure? Just because they removed the word class from the equation doesn't mean we won't still have some abilities from other jobs to use. Personally, with the lvl cap going up to 60 I'm hoping they open it up more and allow for some more hybrid customizations.

[lyndwyrm]

I'll try and keep my whole spiel on how cross-class skills could be better out of this and focus on 2 points.

First, I don't see Square changing the ability lists of all classes at a low level to insert swiftcast, provoke, and invigorate. This is mostly based on the fact that since 2.0 launched, they have only added one ability to one job at level 50, stoneskin II, and even then it's mostly a QoL change (even more, I have a sneaking suspicion it was already planned for 3.0 but they pushed it up for various reasons). I believe they are trying to have as little effect on low-level content as possible, and keep the pattern of only gaining abilities/traits on the 2's and in class/job quests. So, I don't think they'll go changing the pre-50 ability lists.

However, if they go along the lines of adding an "upgraded job crystal" which removes cross class skills altogether, I could see them adding new abilities to replace swiftcast/provoke/invigorate in the 10 levels before obtaining said "upgraded job crystal." It wouldn't necessarily be the same ability or an ability with the same effect, it could be better or worse. For example, if they added a GCD 10y skill that cost 120+TP but had provoke's effect to WAR at lv54 (or a job one at 55/60) then gave a better job crystal at 60 that removed cross class skills, they might feel that will work for the direction of the game. This may sound weird, but I don't see them simply then giving WAR provoke at lv54.

Which leads to the second point. With the addition of NIN, they added dancing edge which has the exact same effect as storm's eye, but is a separate ability and has a separate debuff. If they were to move away from cross-class skills, then I feel they would more likely move in this direction, ie. adding new abilities with the same effect. They're not saving any development time by duplicating skills if they keep making new ones with the same effect.

I think they'll probably keep cross-class skills as they are now for this expansion, and the new jobs will just gain 1 cross class skill slot per 10 levels. Although if those 3 only pull from the current classes and don't add any new cross class skills in the next 10 levels, that'll be a pretty big nail in the coffin of the cross class skill system. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the cross class system to go away, but I do hope it improves in the expansion.

[Gardes]

Who's to say that the new jobs won't have special skills they learn through quests that can't be cross classed but still have other "cross class/job" abilities in order to meet the current structure?

If anything they should destroy that structure. All 3 meelee dps has b4b, inner release, invig for cross class and have almost the same upkeep for class actions (2 dots, 1 resistance down and at least 1 self buff). Blm and smn almost have the same cross classes but at least their underlying class mechanics is different enough. I am gonna be pretty disappointed if drk is going to have the same cross classes as pld and war and have the same tanking structure (1 base aoe enmity generator, 3 hit single target enmity generator, 1 20% mitigation equivalent, 1 40% mitigation equivalent, etc)

[abzoluut]

I think they finally decided this horrid cross-class thing limits their options.

No base class for the new jobs is indeed a step closer to a world w/o them. I for one, obviously, hope they will get rid of 1.0's horrid remnant.

[QiLymePye]

I think they finally decided this horrid cross-class thing limits their options.

No base class for the new jobs is indeed a step closer to a world w/o them. I for one, obviously, hope they will get rid of 1.0's horrid remnant.

I agree. I felt like almost all of the classes or jobs play the same. If they get rid of this stupid cross class garbage, maybe we will have more unique jobs, which will have more variety. i think they might me going the route of WoW, but with the jobs being interchangeble instead of being stuck with one job the entirety of your characters life.