What are the differences between the Echo and having Hydaelyn's Blessing? [Spoilers?]

[ExKage]

I've been under the impression that having Hydaelyn's Blessing is what keeps us from being Tempered. Echo allows us glimpses along time (past, present, future?) as well as the ability to understand other languages (Ascian language).

However, some people say that Echo is what prevents us from being tempered.

If so, what does Hydaelyn's Blessing grant us? Is it just plot armor?

Most will say that yes the two are separate and that is what I believed but I also just saw this...

When the Echo “translates” for someone, it is a joint effort between the listener’s mind and Hydaelyn’s gift. The gift is providing the knowledge, while the listener’s mind is using its previously compiled linguistic background to compile the data into something more familiar.

Other responses from those who I believe have a much, much greater grasp than I do on lore have gone along the lines that it is Hydaelyn's Blessing that grants us protection from Tempering and others say that it is the Echo. Which is it? Perhaps we really don't know too much about the Echo at all? Iceheart and the Ascians, both of whom seem to have it, know more than we the players do anyway.

Obviously at the end of 2.5(0) there is a shift. We do not have Hydaelyn's Blessing or it was superseded by Midgardsormr. Yet we are able to -just- sense the Ascian Nabriales -and- understand what he said. So this means that the Echo is not directly affected by the Blessing (assumption).

I'm so very confused.

[lololink]

Echo is being connected to Hydealyn, giving you knowledges about the world by giving you language and flashbacks, the blessing is the power of the crystals.

The echo protects against tempering, because it is our link with Hydealyn, the echo itself is some kind of tempering, while the crystals are a power to defeat the ascians and other dark beings, it's the crystals that grant us the power to defeat Lahabrea and Ultima Weapon in the Praetorium.

[Clawtooth]

So this mistake has come about due to people assuming that th two things are synonymous, whereas they are actually two different powers that the WoL has access to.

The Echo: The Echo is a psychic power that many people in Eorzea posess. Members of the 1.0 organization "The Path of the Twelve" had this ability, and they made up the bulk of the Scions in 2.0. This power does a few things. Firstly, it allows for the "transcendence of the soul" - the ability to enter the minds and past of individuals and see into their memories or see visions of the past. Secondly, it allows panlingualism - the ability to understand the raw concepts and meaning behind language as Ferne pointed out the other day. Thirdly, it provides the soul armour against external interference, meaning that one cannot be tempered when one has the Echo - this is precisely WHY Minfilia sends you and other path walkers to investigate the primal summonings - the members of the Circle of Knowing on the other hand (Thancred, Yda, Papalymo, Y'shtola, Urianger, Moenbryda, Alphinaud, Alisae???) do not posses the Echo, and are thus vulnerable to the effects of tempering. They make up for this by being badasses.

Hydaelyn's Blessing: The first time she pulls you into her crystal realm Hydaelyn gives you a task: "The power to banish the darkness dwelleth in the crystals of Light, go forth Adventurer and claim them" (probably paraphrased). Throughout the 2.0 main story, the adventurer accumulates several crystals from various places. Fire, Earth, and Wind are gained by beating Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda respectively. Water is gained first, very early in the story after beating an ascian's summoned creature. Lightning is gained from the Sylph elder after you rescue them from Toto-rak. Ice is gained from beating Isgebind in Stone Vigil. Once all six are collected, the adventurer can be said to have Hydaelyn's blessing - also called the blessing of Light. This Blessing is far less understood than the Echo because the Adventurer (the WoL, us) is the only person with access to it. This blessing fulfills an important role in the 2.0 story's climax - it allows us to strip Lahabrea out of Thancred and also it protects us from Ultima's blast. In addition I seem to remember it "pulls" the Primals out of Ultima in order for us to strip Ultima of its powers. This power has seen limited use since 2.0's conclusion because our connection to the Mothercrystal has been tenuous at best. The adventurer "activates it" as a shield against Middy at the top of Keeper, to which he responds that we're important somehow. He then seems to ask Hydaelyn if it's okay to borrow her blessing to gain a new body for the time being as Mini Middy. In doing this however, he strips us of a defense against Ascians that we thought was vital. However, it is likely that we no longer need it to confront them as we managed to kill Nabriales without it.

That's the in story reason behind the revoking of the blessing. Narratively speaking, I think that us losing the blessing and gaining Middy is more of a thematic representation of us gaining a new spiritual guide - Midgardsormr, since Hydaelyn seems very weak and she does not hav e the strength to guide us any more. What this means for the Echo is another story entirely and that seems to be Minfilia's dilema at the moment.

[treuhavik]

The Echo: Thirdly, it provides the soul armour against external interference, meaning that one cannot be tempered when one has the Echo

This should fall under the Blessing of Light. Basically, a "Blessed" is to Hydaelyn as a "Tempered" is to Ifrit - We gain protection and power in exchange for carrying out her will. Once someone is claimed by a primal (Hyd, Zodiark and possibly the Twelve included), they cannot be influenced by another.

Now, it's uncertain whether or not the echo was also provided by Hydaelyn, but it seems to me that it is rather an inherent ability, likely genetic.

But, yes, they are separate and Midgardsormr removed our "Blessing".

[Delily]

This should fall under the Blessing of Light. Basically, a "Blessed" is to Hydaelyn as a "Tempered" is to Ifrit - We gain protection and power in exchange for carrying out her will. Once someone is claimed by a primal (Hyd, Zodiark and possibly the Twelve included), they cannot be influenced by another.

Now, it's uncertain whether or not the echo was also provided by Hydaelyn, but it seems to me that it is rather an inherent ability, likely genetic.

But, yes, they are separate and Midgardsormr removed our "Blessing".

No, the resistance to tempering is a benefit of the Echo, Minfilia says as much when you meet her. In fact, the resistance is what allowed us to collect the crytals and gain the blessing in the first place. The Blessing seems directly related to weakening the Ultima weapon and blocking the Ascians.

[treuhavik]

No, the resistance to tempering is a benefit of the Echo, Minfilia says as much when you meet her. In fact, the resistance is what allowed us to collect the crytals and gain the blessing in the first place. The Blessing seems directly related to weakening the Ultima weapon and blocking the Ascians.

I must've missed that... Then perhaps the Echo is a gift from Hydaelyn after all, since we see Minfillia and Lady Iceheart both use it to communicate with her. If this is the case, it's likely that the Echo is Hydaelyns "tempering" instead.

[ExKage]

I have reviewed the cutscene for The Scions of the Seventh Dawn. It does -not- state that the Echo helps you from being tempered. Yes it states that it is vital to combating the primal threat but that is implied to be the fact that this gift allows you to transcend the racial, ethnic, other boundaries that will allow you to work with the Beastmen.

"Measures must be taken - measures which transcend boundaries, be they of faction, race, language or creed. And to do so, Scions require those with our talent."

Nothing in that cutscene says this will allow you to fight primals without being tempered! otherwise, so many of those in the Path and Minfilia should be fighting too.

[Wolfandre]

Nothing in that cutscene says this will allow you to fight primals without being tempered!

Thaaaaaat's interesting... So long have we all pretty much assumed this to be true, when we're not specifically told? Hmmm I'll have to launch my own investigation into this...

otherwise, so many of those in the Path and Minfilia should be fighting too.

This probably has a very simple answer: You're an adventurer and they're not. And the best one, to boot. I'd wager a guess that many many people who stumble upon the Echo, in all it's macguffin-y goodness, are likely not the fighty type. Look at Minfilia, who we're only really certain can wield a dagger, at best. Remember that most of those that COULD reasonably fight were wiped out by Livia sans Junius in the raid on the Waking Sands during the MS. There are likely very few or only two Echo-havers (yourself and Minfilia) in the Scions these days.

I do like where this discussion is going. I am still very veeeery concerned as to what exactly Middy tried to do to us that triggered glowy blue blessing/Echo thing. Is it the blessing? If so, does that mean Midgardsormr is Dark/Void aligned (probably not)? If he triggered the Echo, does that mean he was trying to temper us (I know, I know! He's not a primal!)?! If he *was*, that would explain his blue head thing.... Does separating these two things make any sense for the scene directly after KotL?! WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN!?

EDIT: Just rewatched the CS. Middy didn't do nuffink to you to make the shield activate. Seems like you can just call on that nonsense whenever you want. I'm much calmer now....tehe.

EDIT2: Yeah you can go ahead and ignore most of this post. Should really do some research before I open my mouth.....

[Anonymoose]

I'm not sure how much of this I'll be able to tease out by the end, but let's start with one thing:

But the primals are seldom satisfied with such reverence as their adherents freely give, and in order to gain more power, they do not scruple to create
 followers. They do this by "tempering" mortals—a process to which you yourself were subjected. Yet even as Ifrit took your comrades in his thrall, you alone remained unaffected. This is thanks to the power you possess—the Echo.

[Clawtooth]

There are likely very few or only two Echo-havers (yourself and Minfilia) in the Scions these days.

There are at least four. the WoL, Minfilia, Hoary Boulder, and Coultenet. The last two I'm pretty sure use the Echo since they're not Archons, and if they were just "hired muscle" then they'd have been transferred to the Crystal Braves by now.