SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[coldreactive]

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

There are some people who hate raids actually. On an MMORPG Request forum, someone is asking for a WoW-Like game, but without huge raids.

[Atomnium]

Because giving some fan service to non-raiders is an awful sin. Got it.

The game as it is... is like 98% fan service only, the 2% left is the latest "version" of a coil that isn't nerfed yet.

Gear you aren't interested in = Worthless. Got it.

For a pure glamour purpose, anything can be interesting, it's a matter of tastes but when it come about worthing gears, right now there is none because they will all be replaced on a (very soon) later date.

Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

Do you realize that you pointed out the real issue? only a few people re able to get into raids and this is the true problem! And this isn't even the fault of the players, it's the fault of the game iself for tagging every single things that matter to do with huges daily/weekly lockouts, everywhere!!! there is no uses of a free company than having food buffs and co :x because of all the lockouts this game have we re bound to play the game at a very slow progression, the whole weekly token system act like as a fake lure to force your sub going while giving you illusionary feelings of going somewhere
If the game had more raid contents without any kind of lock out than useless / worthless /wasted lv50 dungeon... It would boost the community more in a dynamic way, giving a true meaning of having a FC.

[Kiara]

This is a vertical progression MMO. The current progression strategy is locked in until the end of 2.x. Once 3.0 drops, you may see more set bonus sort of things (I'd like that for sure), but even then it's likely to still be largely vertical gear progression.

Gear you aren't interested in = Worthless. Got it.

Raids that only 10-15% of the players would ever see? No thank you.

Teryaani,

Just because it is currently a purely Vertical Progression MMO doesn't mean people can't leave feedback to the developers as to what they'd like changed. I'm glad you like the game just the way it is. For me and many in this thread, the Gear Treadmill is getting pretty awful and repetitive.

And my comment about Lost City's gear is pretty much true for all players after they reach Level 50 and start doing any activities for Tomestones (of the month) or Coil (or future End Game). Even if you skip End Game, and just turn in current Tomestones for gear it is better than the gear in any of the Trash Mob Dungeons being released. It's a fact.

I know plenty of players who don't do much End Game, but they Gather and Craft, and even they turned in their Tomestones to get the latest gear back then, which was statistically better than what Lost City dropped.

What I was referring to was that when a player reaches Level 50, they can for all intents and purposes jump straight over and through --> ALL of the "Hard Mode" and other Trash Mob Dungeons and get iLevel gear that eclipses all of that without going to End Game (just with the current Tomestone (flavor) of the month).

I'm saying for all that extra effort the Dev Team put in, they could've adjusted it to be something far more useful for Horizontal Progression or Side Grades. Yes, that involves an inherent change to his philosophy, but he's acknowledged the possibility in his last Fan Fest talk.

So, sure for the small percentage of people who just happen to be item level 60 and only wanted to follow the treadmill exactly and get i70 next, OK, Lost City was "useful" to them. But when it was released people were already gearing i90, which was then quickly eclipsed again. Now Snowcloak (brand-new dungeon) drops Antique gear which is traded in for i90. The current gear cap is i130(!).

Even my super casual friends who play sparingly can go into Syrcus Tower and gear i100 and get Sands of Time to convert their Tomestone gear to i110 with no issues. So "yes" for all intents and purposes the Trash Mob Dungeons Yoshi P releases each patch are always behind for relevant gear.

I'm not saying all dungeons have to be "end game," but he seems to be trying to "retrofit" a gear path into a game that most players don't need.

[Deathscythe343]

I don't think the grind is really the issue here. I think that it is the reward. Not counting any kind of roulette bonus is takes 12 full runs of a dungeon to max out poetics for the week. Once you have done that what reason does one have to run the dungeon again for the rest of the week?

Now I am not saying that SE should start throwing mounts, and huge sums of gil at players to keep them doing things like dungeons, ST, and coil, etc, however generally the goal is to keep as many people paying to play the game as possible. If players are getting burned out or bored with the number of things to keep them busy from one day or week to the next then it becomes time for the developers to add or create something new that will keep player's interest.

The goal is to make the player want to log in on a daily basis to play the game. They do need something for players to make their characters better beyond just getting the best available gear for them.

[Firepower]

I came across this issue this patch to be honest. I've played continuously since 2.0 open beta and it hasn't been a problem until this patch, I don't really like any of the current jobs, I was kind of hoping that Ninja's release would rekindle some interest although i didn't really enjoy the mudra system so i went back to MNK. I stayed away from coil 2 and will stay away from final coil too as i have no interest in raiding and did every other content available.

Since open beta it has been somewhat like this:

Collect philosophy tomes and i55,i60 gear
Do ifrit
get i55 weapon
Do garuda,
get 2 - 3 pieces of darklight
Do titan
get relic.
--------------
mythology to cap weekly for i90 (grind atma, mythology for animus, novus)
soldiery to cap weekly for i100
hunts for sand for i110 (grind nexus light)
poetics for i120
patch 2.45? grind something else for upgrade to i130 (super grind for next relic level)

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

[Kiara]

Ignoring the fact that gear swaps broke too many things about FFXI to count, would you rather we have extra stats that will eventually have to be removed to keep class performance balanced and because item budgets were getting too big for the amount of power the devs wanted players to have? It ain't much better.

WoW at one point had: Spell Hit (accuracy), Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Expertise (decreased mob's chances of parrying and dodging your attacks), Ranged Crit, Hit Rating (AkA accuracy), and Healing Spellpower. ALL of those are gone, either blended into main stats or simply removed from the game.

Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.

Hi Duelle, Garlyle,

Good points. For sure having a bunch of extra stats that only cause imbalance or can't be properly balanced would be problematic. I don't need over complicated stats to make a game meaningful. But to your points then:

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

I think there's a balance to be had overall, and with enough Relevant & Meaningful Stats, we could have more interesting Itemization / Equipment in the game instead of such predictable and limited Gear. The *magic* and interest is taken away from the game since Day 1 of 2.0. Your entry-level Gear is the same as your End Game Gear. It's always the same. And "surprise" guess what your item level 700 Gear is going to be? The same: Always +VIT and +[Main Stat].

Boring.


2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance.

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

I'd rather see more Interesting, Meangingful Stats and more interesting Gear Sets (or other forms of Customization) than the Cookie-Cutter, Gear Treadmill we have now.

I hope things change in 3.0.

[Deathscythe343]

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

This actually leads to something that bothers me about the relic upgrade. It is the same for everyone. No matter what job you are, you do the exact same thing as everyone else. Now, I understand that this makes things from a development standpoint, extremely easy. However, it seems like that if the upgrade process was more unique to the job one was doing it for, the process itself would seem more rewarding to players. I think back to my days playing EQ and doing my epic weapon quest for my warrior. The process was specific to that class. Sure there was a little overlap at times with other classes, but primarily the quest was totally unique to that class. It kind of makes me thankful that the relic weapon line is coming to an end. I'm hoping things are different with the expansion.

[Avarghaladion]

I disagree with you on the production values. The point you seem to be focusing on is the voice acting though. Voice acting was one of the banes on development side of games like SWTOR. It was expensive and time consuming to get any new content out. Is the player base really willing to wait many extra months so you can hear more of Minfilia's voice? I know that I'm not. One of this game's strengths is it's short development cycle for patches.

Then they shouldn't continually half-ass it. Other titles that aren't AAA do full VA just fine. It isn't the obstacle you percieve it to be. F2P titles do it that release content on the same schedule. All things I already pointed out and that anyone can casually observe in a number of titles.

At any rate, no that wasn't my primary point on production value. At minimum, the game costs ~$140/yr per player and the bulk of the game's playtime is shamelessly padded. This may be par for the course in MMOs but the degree and manner to which it is padded in XIV is asinine and excessive. What we get for our money is a few new static mob move rotations to memorize, some reskins and pretty but hollow/stale backdrops, a single occasional good musical composition, and new experiments in tedium tolerance. Addtionaly, they employ RNG and lockouts of every nature known to gaming and especially tedious and repetitive grinds in excess of any game besides FFXI and legacy-style MMOs. Nothing ever changes and there is zero randomization of any kind. Games we paay less for offer much more and have more heart. There is profuction value here, but it's a skeletal look-but-don't-touch experience held together by intentionally addictive elements. It's only the framework of what we should expect from a modern AAA MMO.

This is hardly unique to FFXIV. You can buy carries in nearly any MMO, no matter horizontal or vertical progression. You can't force players to care, and trying just makes them unsub.

No kidding? A game is easy if you buy carries? Obviously irrelevant and not the point. The game's "hardest" content is virtually a Simon Says simulator devoid of any real personal challenge. The only difficulty that exists is completely artificial in that failure is rarely a result of a lack of gamer skill. A good player can perform their role flawlessly every single time, be God's gift to gaming in general, but it doesn't matter if even one person in the group makes even a single mistake in pretty much any coil turn pre-nerf. The fact that carries are even possible is indicative of the game's weakness in this department. It's easier for a group to clear something short a member than it is to clear with someone who makes even a single mistake. Aside from meeting DPS checks, a player who is mediocre at their job but adept at jumping through the team-jumprope hoops is more useful than the world's best gamer who hasn't memorized the rotations. How hard could it ever actually be when every boss does the exact same moves at the exact same times every single time you fight it? It's a joke.

There are still some zones that fresh geared characters can be quickly overwhelmed by LOS pulled mobs.

How? Unless they let themselves get petrified you can literally walk away from any open world fight as soon as it becomes evident you bit off more than you can chew. Sight mob are extremely easy to avoid thanks to narrow and short detection cones. Hearing mobs are completely avoidable by walking instead of running and have even smaller detection areas. If you fight a ranged mob you have to start walking earlier but the point stands. There is zero actual risk in any aspect of the open world.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Toxic doesn't mean "disagrees with me". This community has been one of the best ones I've been in in the MMOS I've played.

Ironic bad attitude aside, the game, official forums, and reddits all abound with people of the mind that "holy $$%^ this community is toxic," and it's almost entirely the result of the game's content being presented in the way it is.

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight. Toxicity arises when friendly but clueless players join without having watched a video or something, usually.

- Older players grinding tomes have to deal with people wanting to watch up to 40min of CS in some cases, new players watching CS have to deal with rude veterans harping on em or kicking em.

- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.

- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

- Hunt trolls.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

MMOs are a grind. All of them. Your complaint is that it's quick enough to not annoy people. How is that bad?

The grind is supposed to be entertaining. XIV's grind is uninspired and lazy. It's bad because they're intentionally pushing the limits of what they know people will tolerate with the express purpose of padding subscription times. It feels like making things fun isn't even relevant to them.

Again, voice acting is not the savior of the game. It will make things take longer to release and make it harder for new content with those characters to be made if you insist on everything being voice acted.

Again, strawman argument and ignores the meat of the issue. VA aside, the script is still unpolished. Plot has been touched on by in-depth in posts well before you made yours. Not going to revisit it.

No, this is a vertical progression game with a vertical progression grind. Not seeing any sign of a horizontal progression here.

Lrn2read. "Horizontal progression style grind." The vertical grind is stetched out as much as possible. Gear is earned with almost as much grind as one would expect of gear in a horizontal progression system but it's still totally bland vertical progression disposable trash with no real options to speak of. Players pay and play more for less.

You're complaining that the game is boring, and one of your favorite bits is autopilot fishing? Sorry, what?

Lrn2read x2. Pretty easy to comprehend. You can literally play other games or even respond to vapid counterarguments, such is the freedom granted by fishing. It was a bit of a satirical remark, but it's true. At least fishing doesn't try to disguise the fact that it's a shameless time sink and it rewards you an item that's markedly better than anything comparable... not like DoW/DoM gameplay where everything is pretty much on par.

[Cidel]

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight.
- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.
- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

I agree SE needs to get off the gear and content treadmill it is just really horrible. That and lowman lockout content which is a cancer for any guild trying to run as more then a social.

As for gear swapping, alot of people want it back for what is allowed content to do. It was the key to keeping all content relevant for almost ever. Until SE killed off the game with Abysea. And I would bet over 50% would love content that is never negated. (NOTE THIS DOES NOT MEAN NOT GETTING ANYTHING NEW!) That is the misconception ppl have with horizontal content. We can get as much content as we get now. but none of the old stuff becomes "Vanity Only/Desynth gear".

The progression blocking with nothing else to do once you hit endgame makes things like Free companies glorified chatrooms in the end.

Crafting and gathering are relegated to generally glamor content as progressive content is locked away behind the hardcore lockouts. All I suggest is for SE to start branching out your content instead of having one linear path of progression.

All of you :

[Duelle]

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

You're bringing in needless hyperbole in an attempt to make a point. Secondary stats have always existed in the context of RPGs, and the key has been to balance stuff in such a way that you don't have one stat to rule them all (the way Haste did in FFXI). The other key point is making stuff not mandatory outside of what is the context of your job.

Relevant Meaningful interesting predictable limited *magic* boring

And so come the meaningless words. Gear is a means to an end. The end being seeing content. You claim balance can exist despite people who have seen examples to the contrary. We're telling you that drinking the cool aid with cyanide in it is a bad idea but you think it'll somehow work out if you do.

2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance.

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

Now you're abusing the word "irony". Since you missed the obvious point, I'll spell it out in a format that you seem to think will drive a point home:

Now imagine what balance clusterfuck we'd have if we had what you call "meaningful" "interesting" stats on top of imbalances that are a result of encounter balance and new classes being added to the game.

WAR's design clashed with what how people were approaching Coil, which is why it had to be changed. People who actually analyzed stuff could also see that in the long run WAR would have run into issues (even the tank forums here agreed that no amount of self healing could ever hope to approach the level of mitigation a PLD had at the time). That's what prompted the change. BLM's got buffed in response to how the class performed versus encounter design (because encounters with mobility elements were pimp-slapping BLMs). DRG's issues didn't really become news-worthy until magical damage attacks in Coil 3 were nearly-killing or one-shotting DRGs in top raid gear in the obvious result of crafter gear having more magical defense than ilvl110 DRG gear.

Mind you, more "interesting" stats would have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues these jobs had, as they come from job design vs encounter design. The fact that itemization is straightforward simply makes finding these issues a lot easier, and thus easier to resolve. So to spell it out again: Class design and mechanics don't have anything to do with "unique" stats, and issues/deficiencies would be notably more difficult to pinpoint and resolve if said "unique" stats were part of the equation.