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  1. #11
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    Place Fire affinity at 54 to produce delicious results from Shepherd's Pie.
    What does this food do? I have just been using Eel Pie and Knights Bread because it's what I was getting from leve rewards. Would all I have to tweak is my fire affinity or would I have to lower other stats too? Also, what is the difference between "delicious results" and the effects when using it with out that effect? Thanks! Nice guide.
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  2. #12
    Player
    wind's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa - Balmung
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    Wind Oni
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    Balmung
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    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra View Post
    ^ This.

    From my testing a Mythril Choker with +4 Atk had more impact on my damage output than 3 Garnet rings (+21 STR.)
    I agree atk is better then str but.. stats do affect your shots now. I tried finding the best mob closest to my level to test it out to avoid the whole dlvl factor. I shot 800-1k shots each test on the same lvl 49 mob(made sure not to kill it) and saw a definite gain on dmg. although it took 7str to match up to 4atk.. there was still a boost in dmg.

    I dont have a full formula for dmg of course because its hard figuring out the dlvl portion of dmg lol and since dlvl is the major deciding factor of the dmg you cause rather then stats I understand when people say "stats dont mean much".

    Just don't forget stats do currently increase your damage it might not be as noticeable since all our shots are +-9.5 usually but it does increase if you actually do the testing and find the min value / max value .

    Way I tested it was finding the min/max dmg of the shots I was doing, I tried using warped > iron > red coral all naked.. then adding +7 str / +14 str / +21 str / +4 atk.. all tests were separate to see if the damage increase was linear or just a fluke. Everything was increasing at a noticeable rate.


    Just remember this was all on the same lvl 49 mob. The reason for this was I wanted to keep it as close to 50 as I could so that the dlvl factor was not a huge variable.


    *dlvl=difference in lvl*

    edit: didnt have any silver arrow's made which is why I didn't use in my test, I'll re-add those but i'm sure they will show an increase just as iron did from warped since its in the same category. Also I was shooting at kobold's sooo red coral did amazingly shitty haha. Way worse then warped.


    @OP: If you're doing BR's on your fights maybe throw cadence as "useful additional skills". Also, nice guide.
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    Last edited by wind; 08-14-2011 at 06:42 AM.

  3. #13
    Player
    Murugan's Avatar
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    Murugan Raj
    World
    Leviathan
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    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra View Post
    • Cadence/Keen Flurry, while are good skills, are not worth replacing anything else on the full bar if you have a lot of the recommended skills - especially Raging Strike II, Hawk's Eye and Ferocity II. Also with BRs, especially vs these bosses it becomes more important to stack efficiently and quickly execute than have people buffing around - particularly with Bloodletter as it has a static 500 damage at the end of the DoT that is unaffected by anything. That DoT + the 500 dmg is what you're mainly using Bloodletter for.
    • Siphon TP is a better choice. Absorb ATK will barely do anything for you unless you have more than base PIE. Just becomes an MP sink.
    • Foeseeker can be buffed with a Multishot to do even more damage, and it was already buffed with 1.18. Although it isn't a clear winner between itself and SS2. In the end I say it would come down to whether or not there's a MRD in the party as well, and your personal choice.
    • Buffs on a triple shot are more effective than on any WS Archer has. That much has been determined. Ideally Archer buffs multishots and stacks WS on BR for any buff. Nothing, including buffs, effects the final damage from Bloodletter: it is always 500 when used on Archer. The DoT is also unaffected by buffs, and like all DoTs is based on PIE.
    • Victimize II is VERY much worth using on a mob with multiple debuffs and DoTs on it, provided one has 3k TP. Preferably stacking it in a BR as well. Tier 1 Victimize however is not worth using as soon as you obtain any tier II WS.
    • Using Bloodletter only when the DoT wears off and the 500 damage is dealt is common sense. Overwriting it, if done by another Archer, won't do anything but extend how long until the DoT ends and the damage is dealt. Ideally letting it end and replenishing it asap gives you the best DPS you'll get out of Bloodletter.
    • Replacing what? I usually have:
      Leg Sweep, Bloodletter, Second Wind II, Ferocity II, Invigorate, Raging Strike II, Still Precision, Cure II, Invigorate, Skull Sunder II, Trifurcate, Barrage, Foeseeker, Cadence, Keen Flurry, Murderous Intent, Blindside II, Chameleon, Quelling Strike II I sometimes replace Hawk's Eye with Subtle Release simply because I don't have accuracy problems and Keen Flurry is way better. -I don't have quickstride during most battles, I also don't equip diversion/decoy/quick knock/heavy trammel for most boss fights as they are not necessary.
    • A well coordinated group that plays together regularly should not have problems stacking a BR in <15 seconds fully buffed. Buffing should not be taking place during the stacking, that is incredibly inconsiderate to the people already sitting in the BR who are unable to attack (especially if they are archers not auto attacking), you should be buffing before the BR stacking begins, buffing should not take you that long either (macro's, or just knowing where your buffs are and being ready). - Also if you have multiple Archers are you not overwriting the DoT/end dmg?
    • I don't have TP problems and I don't have base PIE, I don't think STR gives a large enough damage boost to be so overly worried about it at the moment as some Archers are. With Ethers I usually have more than enough MP as it is to spot cure II the tank so I think I could even do both and replace Subtle Release or possibly foeseeker (since I generally use Skull Sunder II)
    • I usually am shooting 2x arrow multishots which really don't seem worth buffing, and trifurcate or any multishot ability/ws doesn't seem to be as effective fully buffed versus Batraal/the Ogre (maybe Batraal, but I generally use trifurcate on the skeletons during that fight anyways). Obviously I see your point on mobs with lower defense as you hit for 100-200+ a shot, but even buffed on ogre I hit maybe 80 a hit, which just doesn't seem enough especially since they can miss one or two arrows.
    • I asked how much damage you had gotten, I have Victimize 2 as I am a pugilist main, but since I've gotten over 370 on a bloodletter it doesn't seem worth the cost. I was wondering if someone had gotten over 500 with it maybe on Ogre if fully buffed, or ending a BR/melee bursting.
    • I was more asking if anyone was using a bloodletter rotation among multiple archers to get that end damage more often (since you are not overwriting it) and if it would produce more damage or if people did that (most pick up groups just spam it), if buffing bloodletter doesn't affect DoT I guess you wouldn't even need a rotation just assign a single archer to do it. If that is the case what weapon skill would be better to buff/use for the other archers? I've gotten high 300's even a few 400's with crits using buffed bloodletters, but maybe a buffed/multi shotted or even trifurcated Foeseeker buffed would be better? A Raging Strike/ Skull Sunder II is also pretty good damage. Barrage/Quick knock are multi shot WS and therefore I don't think quite as good against high level boss fights, but maybe someone else has a different experience (I haven't been playing archer long).
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  4. #14
    Player
    carraway's Avatar
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    Carraway Author
    World
    Excalibur
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    Armorer Lv 60
    Noctis answered most of the questions I was going to address, but I can elaborate on a few points.

    A full 8-person BR with Magic -> Magic -> Staggered WSs (each consecutive WS being from a different class than the previous WS) needs to fire in under 10 seconds to be considered worthwhile, and realistically speaking, this is not practical in most situations. Archers independently maximizing their DPS rotation will outpace the added output from a BR, because the sheer act of locking people into a BR significantly reduces DPS; this is also not mentioning potential loss in DoT uptime from THMs/CONs while they are locked into the BR. This has been my theory for a long time and my shell has corroborated it during 5-chest DH clears.

    For this reason, I have left the BR-related buffs off my loadouts. I won't reconsider them until either challenged with conclusive data or until significant overhauls are performed to how BRs work -- chiefly, the forced period of inactivity.

    From personal experience, my record with a Crab Bow +1 and Silver Arrows on Deepvoid Slave (ogre) was a ~850 Trifurcate buffed with Raging Strike II, Ferocity II, and Hawk's Eye. Two out of three arrows were crits. The average fully buffed Trifurcate/Multishot is in the 600 range. This is outside of a BR, obviously, and with no impeding of your regular rotation. Self-buffs get raped hard by all WS dmg coefficients, which is not something that a BR can overcome (barring, again, a super-fast 8-person BR with the proper ordering done on the fly).

    You don't end BRs with a Bloodletter. You don't ever use Bloodletter with buffs; that's pointless, because as a WS, it's similar in its dmg mod to a Foeseeker. The point of everyone using Bloodletter right when it wears off is because if you set up a rotation and someone in the order gets a resist or misses, realistically speaking, the next person in the rotation is not going to respond quickly enough to maintain uptime. Maximizing Bloodletter uptime without overwriting at the end is significant damage (ogre fight of 3:30 = 7 Bloodletter procs = 3500 damage), and the simplest way that I've found to ensure maximum uptime is just to tell everyone to refresh it when it wears -- and if you know that a particular Archer has slow reflexes or doesn't watch the mob's debuffs, tell that person to just never use Bloodletter ever.

    There are certainly ways to better min/max loadouts for pure DPS on boss fights, but I never change my loadout during a DH run. My reasoning for this is that I always want to be ready for any kind of situation that might arise, whether due to player mistake (someone else's or my own) or RNG. So I keep all of my utility/defensive skills on my bars, even if I don't use them.
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  5. #15
    Player
    carraway's Avatar
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    Carraway Author
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    Excalibur
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    Armorer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Scape View Post
    What does this food do? I have just been using Eel Pie and Knights Bread because it's what I was getting from leve rewards. Would all I have to tweak is my fire affinity or would I have to lower other stats too? Also, what is the difference between "delicious results" and the effects when using it with out that effect? Thanks! Nice guide.
    http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/...erly-digest-d/

    tl;dr Shepherd's Pie is the highest level raw atk food. Setting Fire affinity to the +/-5 range (54 is the exact number) provides the most benefit without sacrificing actual stat allocation. (You would need both Fire affinity 54 and STR 70 to get divine results). Delicious is +5.4% atk, divine is +7.4% atk. Honestly, STR 70 might be worth it if you're always eating food, but I personally haven't tested it, and probably won't with 1.19 on the horizon.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player
    Murugan's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    Character
    Murugan Raj
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by carraway View Post
    Noctis answered most of the questions I was going to address, but I can elaborate on a few points.

    A full 8-person BR with Magic -> Magic -> Staggered WSs (each consecutive WS being from a different class than the previous WS) needs to fire in under 10 seconds to be considered worthwhile, and realistically speaking, this is not practical in most situations. Archers independently maximizing their DPS rotation will outpace the added output from a BR, because the sheer act of locking people into a BR significantly reduces DPS; this is also not mentioning potential loss in DoT uptime from THMs/CONs while they are locked into the BR. This has been my theory for a long time and my shell has corroborated it during 5-chest DH clears.

    For this reason, I have left the BR-related buffs off my loadouts. I won't reconsider them until either challenged with conclusive data or until significant overhauls are performed to how BRs work -- chiefly, the forced period of inactivity.

    From personal experience, my record with a Crab Bow +1 and Silver Arrows on Deepvoid Slave (ogre) was a ~850 Trifurcate buffed with Raging Strike II, Ferocity II, and Hawk's Eye. Two out of three arrows were crits. The average fully buffed Trifurcate/Multishot is in the 600 range. This is outside of a BR, obviously, and with no impeding of your regular rotation. Self-buffs get raped hard by all WS dmg coefficients, which is not something that a BR can overcome (barring, again, a super-fast 8-person BR with the proper ordering done on the fly).

    You don't end BRs with a Bloodletter. You don't ever use Bloodletter with buffs; that's pointless, because as a WS, it's similar in its dmg mod to a Foeseeker. The point of everyone using Bloodletter right when it wears off is because if you set up a rotation and someone in the order gets a resist or misses, realistically speaking, the next person in the rotation is not going to respond quickly enough to maintain uptime. Maximizing Bloodletter uptime without overwriting at the end is significant damage (ogre fight of 3:30 = 7 Bloodletter procs = 3500 damage), and the simplest way that I've found to ensure maximum uptime is just to tell everyone to refresh it when it wears -- and if you know that a particular Archer has slow reflexes or doesn't watch the mob's debuffs, tell that person to just never use Bloodletter ever.

    There are certainly ways to better min/max loadouts for pure DPS on boss fights, but I never change my loadout during a DH run. My reasoning for this is that I always want to be ready for any kind of situation that might arise, whether due to player mistake (someone else's or my own) or RNG. So I keep all of my utility/defensive skills on my bars, even if I don't use them.
    {Disclaimer: I don't want to get in a pissing match with you. My linkshell is not on the level of Blue Garter at the moment, I can remember back to FFXI borrowing from BG's strats on what's his name (the wyrm in King Ranpierre's tomb). If you want to debate the virtues of BR I'm sure you can do that with and are aware of the several other endgame shells who also farm 5 chests and do use Battle Regimen to do it. If you feel that you have enough evidence to disregard BR like skillchains in XI were disregarded by the majority of endgame LS I certainly know that it is possible to do equal or... maybe even better damage without them though I don't understand the logic of that.}

    I find it counter-intuitive to do a spell>spell>staggered BR as I don't feel mages should be stuck in a BR any longer than 1-2 seconds. I generally stacking a damage BR with melee>archers>mages. I also don't see why it would be impracticle for an experienced and practiced linkshell to do a battle regimen in inside of 10 seconds. I do them all the time with random pick up groups while leveling (JP/French/brand new players/whatever).

    Even as a tank I don't find it a problem to participate in a BR in that situation as I am not in BR for more than 3 seconds, and have to sacrifice none of my auto attack/basic attacks in the process, secure hate, and can get a heal off before so I am not in danger even if all mages are in BR. I'm not trying to compare grouping with random pick ups to darkhold in terms of difficulty, just responding to your question about whether it was practical in most situations to do a BR in <10 seconds. I would say it is.

    However if you read my first post you'll see I wasn't even suggesting that all archers always participate in BR. I was just saying I use cadence in a self BR even for the buff, it takes less than the cooldown of light shot to buff/enter/launch a self BR so I don't see what would be sacrificed for doing this other than one (in my opinion) less useful ability. You said you wanted to discussion.

    Sorry I'm writing this while tanking in a grind party. If any of it comes off as rude it wasn't meant to be that way I just am not spending a whole lot of time on it. I have a lot of respect for people who have been playing archer longer than me (2 weeks, guildleves don't count).
    (0)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by carraway View Post
    http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/...erly-digest-d/

    tl;dr Shepherd's Pie is the highest level raw atk food. Setting Fire affinity to the +/-5 range (54 is the exact number) provides the most benefit without sacrificing actual stat allocation. (You would need both Fire affinity 54 and STR 70 to get divine results). Delicious is +5.4% atk, divine is +7.4% atk. Honestly, STR 70 might be worth it if you're always eating food, but I personally haven't tested it, and probably won't with 1.19 on the horizon.
    thank you very much
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  8. #18
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    carraway's Avatar
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    Carraway Author
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    Excalibur
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    Armorer Lv 60
    Not at all; I'm always open to discussion. I just can't endorse the use of BRs as they stand at this current point in time, and a lot of that has to do with how disgusted I am with the interface.

    However, if you're doing a BR with random melee -> random archers -> mages, I definitely can't see how that would even come close to just pure DPS uptime. I know the notion of knocking off a huge chunk of HP is extremely attractive, and I was one of the original proponents of using advanced BRs in my linkshell back when parties were 15-man, allowing for a lot of leeway to form the golden 8.

    I feel though that 1.18 is such a different beast, and while you may feel or observe greater damage, I encourage you to test a fight like Deepvoid Slave with and without BRs using the same party composition, strategy, gear, food buffs, etc., i.e. try to control as many random factors as possible. At best we were getting it down in about the same time with BRs, and BRs have a built-in liability of forcing player inaction. At worst it was significantly slower (30 seconds or more for a kill).

    All that being said, if BRs work for you, then there is no reason for you to really abandon them. I also used to self-buff with Cadence on solo BRs, but here I'm going to refer, again, to how poorly buffs perform when applied to WSs vs applied to Light Shot. The only WS I really consider buffing now is Barrage (Hawk's Eye on Bloodletter sometimes), and my use of Barrage is not frequent enough to justify the action points spent on inserting Cadence into a loadout that I'm going to use for an entire DH run. Like I mentioned in the guide itself, there's a lot of room for improvement in terms of min/maxing any given loadout, and most of it is going to come down to a number of personal factors.
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  9. #19
    Player
    Murugan's Avatar
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    Murugan Raj
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    Leviathan
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    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by carraway View Post
    Not at all; I'm always open to discussion. I just can't endorse the use of BRs as they stand at this current point in time, and a lot of that has to do with how disgusted I am with the interface.

    However, if you're doing a BR with random melee -> random archers -> mages, I definitely can't see how that would even come close to just pure DPS uptime. I know the notion of knocking off a huge chunk of HP is extremely attractive, and I was one of the original proponents of using advanced BRs in my linkshell back when parties were 15-man, allowing for a lot of leeway to form the golden 8.

    I feel though that 1.18 is such a different beast, and while you may feel or observe greater damage, I encourage you to test a fight like Deepvoid Slave with and without BRs using the same party composition, strategy, gear, food buffs, etc., i.e. try to control as many random factors as possible. At best we were getting it down in about the same time with BRs, and BRs have a built-in liability of forcing player inaction. At worst it was significantly slower (30 seconds or more for a kill).

    All that being said, if BRs work for you, then there is no reason for you to really abandon them. I also used to self-buff with Cadence on solo BRs, but here I'm going to refer, again, to how poorly buffs perform when applied to WSs vs applied to Light Shot. The only WS I really consider buffing now is Barrage (Hawk's Eye on Bloodletter sometimes), and my use of Barrage is not frequent enough to justify the action points spent on inserting Cadence into a loadout that I'm going to use for an entire DH run. Like I mentioned in the guide itself, there's a lot of room for improvement in terms of min/maxing any given loadout, and most of it is going to come down to a number of personal factors.
    I don't really see a lot of DPS uptime when a BR should take no longer than 5-10 seconds to stack and launch. Having the melee stack first means that theoretically no one should be missing out on any of their cooldowns whatsoever.

    As for the stacking on WS like I said I tried stacking on trifurcate and found it not to be so great on batraal post 1.18, but I do know that before 1.18 on the NM's and on just random shit it was great. I'll give it a try, but even still with no BR and no stacking on weapon skills I'd think it would be worth it to take cadence even for a solo BR by yourself over a random defensive ability on a single target fight.

    Why not buff a multishotted foeseeker with it for example?
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  10. #20
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    This is going to add nothing to the thread except another bump and maybe another voice (but) while watching many SR/SR5C videos of other endgame linkshells that do BR, I've noticed that a majority of them are spending 3:45~4:00 on Ogre. We consistently, with a solid dps rotation and DoT up-time, can down him in 3:30~3:00 (without BR).

    Just sayin' ヘ(゚¬゚)ノ
    (1)
    Last edited by Richardd; 08-15-2011 at 01:32 AM.

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