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  1. #1
    Player
    Jinrya-Geki's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,845
    Character
    Jinrya Geki
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70

    Let Players Speed Run Again

    These mechanics that prevent speed runs are getting out of hand. I understand that SE wants to make it so that people don't get forced to do it. That is what Party Finder is for, to make groups either be fast or slow paced.
    But these new dungeons force you, in every way, to be slow paced.

    Some mobs, like in Snowcloak do not spawn until you kill all the other mobs. Like the bear. Also Qarn as well so you can't just pull everything at once. You have to pull to the amount SE wants no how much I want to pull as a paladin.

    Drop points... This one is starting to show up. Hullbreaker and Qarn have to spots that make you drop to 1% HP. Stop that. It's annoying. Another way to force me to stop in a dungeon.

    Giving easy trash mob and bosses... absurd HP. There's nothing special about them. It makes the dungeon pseudo-difficult. It only makes it seem hard when it's the easiest thing in the world. It's only serves to make the already boring dungeons before the end of the first run even more boring.

    Turn 9 has an interesting fully engaging fight. These 3 new dungeons bosses do NOTHING. You can go into the fights blind and win. You don't have to hide behind the crystals in Fenrir. You don't have to dodge the mummies. You don't even have to kill the arms in the kraken fight. You can win all three fights tank and spank if you wanted to. So if you gonna have 3 easy bosses with almost no special attack. Why do they have more HP than some primals. I down Garuda EX faster than the Kraken.

    If you aren't gonna put effort into the dungeon to make it fun, then let me speed run it in 10 minutes or less like previous dungeons. You already have a stupid weekly cap per week. I don't need a speed cap too for 20 minutes.
    (13)

  2. #2
    Player
    ThirdChild_ZKI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,230
    Character
    Lace Valeria
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Here's why this is a bad idea: (brace yourself, I'll be editing this to exceed the character limit)

    From a healer's perspective - Nothing is more boring to me than when a tank just pulls everything then I'm pretty much auto-pilot healing repeatedly for the next minute or so while everyone else spams AoEs ad-nauseum. Plus, you know, if I'm not stuck healing constantly, I CAN help fight. . .

    From a DPS perspective - I'll never forget the thread here where someone was basically unable to run Brayflox HM, or get a party, OR got kicked out of parties at the start. . . just because he was a Dragoon. Sure, I'm aware some classes shine in certain situations, but the speed running epidemic had gotten SO out of hand that if you weren't running Bray HM with a BRD/BLM combo, you weren't running it. That's an absolute foul, no matter how time efficient it is. ALSO, purely from a Bard perspective, spamming Wide Volley is rather inefficient of TP usage, especially for the overall damage it does. That could be debated by several factors (gear, specs, etc.) but the primary point is once you run out of TP, then what? Goad and Paeon aren't instant refreshes, and Invigorate only goes so far. Once you're out, DPS slows down. And if you're trying to speed run, isn't that just counter-productive?

    Now, from a tank's perspective, here's where I really have a lot of controversial things to say. First, and let me just throw it out there, mass pulls are a bad habit to form. Sure, if you can do it and handle it, great, but a lot of people simply can't. There's no reason for an i100+ tank to be dying to the first 3 combined mobs of Snowcloak, except to say bad, old habits. Yes, I can say that they ARE tougher, and do hit harder now (thus discouraging such tactics), but plain and simple, this isn't Brayflox HM. This isn't i90 somethings trying to reach 100 and up. Arguably, this isn't the same game anymore. The bar got raised after your item levels did. It's time for new tactics. It's time to BE tanks, not damage sponges while your party cleans up the mess you make.

    Yes, I'm being a little mean about it, but the fact remains that speed running encouraged some very bad habits to be formed. Habits that might be hard to break, but worse, simply gimp the tank and by effect, the party. Oh, everyone shares the blame too, not just tanks. Anyone thinking that Wide Volley/Flare/Shadow Flare/Ring of Thorns/Death Blossom/Medica 2/Succor are the end-all of effective dungeon tactics, well, simply isn't doing it right. Sure, maybe it worked for a time as the quick, easy way. But think about it: You're all at higher item levels now. There needs to be SOME kind of challenge, or dungeons really would be boring. Don't miss the trees for the forest.

    On that note, from a developer/artist's perspective (no, I'm not a dev, but I will play devil's advocate) - If I put work into creating a dungeon, then I would naturally do more than just focus on enemy encounters. I want you to experience it and enjoy it, admire it, appreciate it for its entirety. Not simply speed run it, get what you want, and never even pay attention to the work I put into it. Or perhaps should I just go the 1.0 route and copy-paste the same backdrop? Why not just create a "white room" and fill it with enemies that are all paper tigers, ready to be herded and killed? I'll tell you why: because THAT is boring. That won't sell my game. Unless by chance that is somehow part of the artistic vision, that's simply bland. Imagine Wanderer's Palace without the other parties exploring it, or the Tonberry Stalkers. Imagine Tam Tara HM without the creepy setup or the cryptic notes Edda left behind. If not for the mummies, can you say Qarn HM's final boss is all that challenging?

    I get it: You at least want the option to speed run dungeons. Forced stops and high falls impede overall completion time, yes. But bear in mind, not only did speed runs foster bad habits and exclusionary practices among the community, it was the wake up call to the devs: it's getting too easy. The bar had to be raised. There needed to be more of a challenge. Without it, there would be no point to better gear or even newer "hard mode" dungeons. To trade time (reasonably) for challenge seems like a small and practical sacrifice. Some may not like it (and to that effect, I'd suggest adding some harder Guildhests with better rewards, but that's just me), but it's overall healthy for the dungeon running crowd. We had it too easy too long, and now even our gear simply outclasses any original challenges (I don't even get knocked back against the Demon Wall now). The bar had to be raised. Speed runs (for now) are a thing of the past.
    (57)
    Last edited by ThirdChild_ZKI; 11-11-2014 at 04:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Jinrya-Geki's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    2,845
    Character
    Jinrya Geki
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    You can go your speed, let me go mine. I already get locked out of the best content cause of SEs stupid weekly lock out. Which they say will be soon in 2.45 or 2.5, but that's not gonna before at least 6 months.

    The least they can let me do is go the pace I want to. I am not going to force people to play my way either. I am going to be a sensible person and ask if they want to go fast.

    That's the whole point of it. Choice. There is no choice here, it's go slow. I pay, just like you, to play a game. They restrict me on several levels from doing certain content. If I want to get poetics as fast as I can, I should be able to.
    (6)

  4. #4
    Player
    Staris's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    441
    Character
    Staris Fate
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 60
    Who says we stopped?
    15 minutes Qarns ftw
    (7)

  5. #5
    Player
    Everdark's Avatar
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    Feb 2013
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    limsa lominsa
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    194
    Character
    I'zual Neverdark
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 60
    No thanks. I love that its "Gated" ... far less stress when you use the DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki View Post
    You can go your speed, let me go mine. I already get locked out of the best content cause of SEs stupid weekly lock out. Which they say will be soon in 2.45 or 2.5, but that's not gonna before at least 6 months.

    The least they can let me do is go the pace I want to. I am not going to force people to play my way either. I am going to be a sensible person and ask if they want to go fast.

    That's the whole point of it. Choice. There is no choice here, it's go slow. I pay, just like you, to play a game. They restrict me on several levels from doing certain content. If I want to get poetics as fast as I can, I should be able to.
    Its not about choice. At all. If it can be speed ran, it will be speed ran. Castrum and Praetorium are the two greatest examples. I still remember WP and Brayflox "hard".

    There is no choice. Speed run or kick.
    (23)
    Last edited by Everdark; 11-11-2014 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Player
    RyuDragnier's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    1,515
    Character
    Hayk Farsight
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Staris View Post
    Who says we stopped?
    15 minutes Qarns ftw
    This, Qarn can go by ridiculously fast.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player
    Jinrya-Geki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Character
    Jinrya Geki
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Staris View Post
    Who says we stopped?
    15 minutes Qarns ftw
    It can be done. The problem with Qarn is the features that force you to stop. Such as the doors that won't open until you kill the two mummies. The fall before the boss that makes you stop for a seconds. It's like SE is going out of it's way to do even the tiniest thing to slow down the dungeons to a painful crawl.

    Like the warden for instance. How he holds you. Yeah it's fast to kill the hands, but if you pull all the mites and snakes into that room and one of the hands grabs the healer or DDs. That potent poison and all the adds damage is going to drop a tank quick. Just another form of way too slow you down.

    SE used to reward speed runs.

    You're all capable (hopefully) to be able to use the duty finder to form a party that has the subject "Slow and Easy". To take your time in a dungeon. I, however can't speed run, which is unfair. Yes you can do Qarn fast, but what if I do a roulette with my FC and we don't get Qarn. Now we have to do Snowcloak or Satasha which have nearly the same issues. Force stops.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player
    Staris's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Staris Fate
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki View Post
    It can be done. The problem with Qarn is the features that force you to stop.
    means nothing, if i join an random expert and the dps are terrible or the tanks pull to slow, i still leave. I would rather go do something else for a while than deal with bad / slower players. We will still do premades that go through dungeons as fast as possible, we will still avoid slow people. This changes nothing.

    The misconception was it had to do with only how fast people pulled... no when your doing 1/3 the damage of a good player (based on fights taking 3 times as long), we still don't want to paly with you. Its the sum of all parts.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    ThirdChild_ZKI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    3,230
    Character
    Lace Valeria
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    I'm sorry, I'm not picking on you, but it sounds to me like you don't want ANY kind of mechanics, you basically want something akin to FATEs/hunts? I won't debate the drops. I don't see them as such a big deal, but I also don't see much point to them. But the part with the Warden. . . sure, he's not a boss or anything, but if not for the holding mechanic, what's the point of the hands? And what else does he have? An easy to dodge beam? No challenge at all.

    And correction: SE never rewarded speed runs. You didn't get anything extra at all. I capped just like everyone else did, every time, and I didn't speed run once. Don't assume however that I did everything at an absolute crawl.
    (16)

  10. #10
    Player
    Jinrya-Geki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    2,845
    Character
    Jinrya Geki
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI View Post
    I'm sorry, I'm not picking on you, but it sounds to me like you don't want ANY kind of mechanics, you basically want something akin to FATEs/hunts? I won't debate the drops. I don't see them as such a big deal, but I also don't see much point to them. But the part with the Warden. . . sure, he's not a boss or anything, but if not for the holding mechanic, what's the point of the hands? And what else does he have? An easy to dodge beam? No challenge at all.

    And correction: SE never rewarded speed runs. You didn't get anything extra at all. I capped just like everyone else did, every time, and I didn't speed run once. Don't assume however that I did everything at an absolute crawl.
    SE used to have a certain numbers of chest drop in 1.0. Darkhold if you speed ran it, would give you 5 chests. If you didn't beat the allotted time, you'd only get 4 chests. Likewise with Aurum Vale.
    I don't mind mechanics as long as they are FUN. Coil is fun and hard. Every mechanic is vital to learn. This my best example. Turn 9 is a fun fight. It's not simply tank and spank.

    With these new dungeons, they add nothing. They aren't fun. They have no interesting mechanic. It's simple and basic, just everything has a million HP or has something to slow me down. That isn't fun to me at all, it's time wasting. If SE isn't gonna make them fun, why the hell would I want to waste anything more than 10 minutes on a dungeon I am gonna see several hundred times trying to gear my Blm, whm, and pld jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Staris View Post
    means nothing, if i join an random expert and the dps are terrible or the tanks pull to slow, i still leave. I would rather go do something else for a while than deal with bad / slower players. We will still do premades that go through dungeons as fast as possible, we will still avoid slow people. This changes nothing.

    The misconception was it had to do with only how fast people pulled... no when your doing 1/3 the damage of a good player (based on fights taking 3 times as long), we still don't want to paly with you. Its the sum of all parts.
    We play differently, I don't leave if a party is slow or not. I'll go any pace. I would like the option to be able to go fast.

    You can't damage everything effectively when the tank can't pull everything because of a mechanic like Snowcloaks ice wall area. The wall breaks only after defeating the last. It's a pointless mechanic only there to slow you down, it's not needed.
    (3)
    Last edited by Jinrya-Geki; 11-11-2014 at 05:24 PM.

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