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  1. #1
    Player

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    79

    DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

    This has gone on long enough.
    Their DPS ceiling is significantly lower than monk or ninja, meaning that their theoretical maximum damage will not touch that of a ninja or monk.

    They are punished much more for missing positionals (missed flank on heavy thrust because you can't move/the boss turned? lose 70 potency and your 15% attack buff. Missed impulse drive from rear? you lose 80 potency and don't get to combo, commiserations), which means that their DPS floor is also significantly lower than a monk or ninja.

    The nature of the punishment meted out to dragoons for missing positionals means that the difference between DPS ceiling and floor is far greater than a ninja or monk. In endgame instances it is becoming apparent that missed positionals occur with greater frequency, meaning that dragoons will be more likely to operate around their DPS floor.
    For monks, this dps floor is not as far from their ceiling, which is already far greater than the drg's dps ceiling. Ninja does not need positionals.

    This means that DPS for a dragoon is oftentimes out of the player's ability to control, more so than it is with a monk or ninja. Meaning that player skill has less of a role in generating significant dps at endgame, random luck has a greater role than for ninja or monk.

    how are dragoons, a dps class, compensated for this lacklustre dps?

    Through utility? no. Ninja has a TP replenishing tool, a slashing debuff of 10% for tanks and other ninjas, a flat 10% damage increase for the entire party for 10 seconds. Monk can decrease the boss's magic damage by 10%, and increase heals to the party within certain range by 20%. Dragoons have…. nothing.

    Through greater defense? LOL no…. they have worse magic defence than many crafting classes. As the majority of unavoidable, aoe damage at endgame is magic in nature, this means that Dragoons are far more likely to die than other classes. They are made of glass.

    Dragoons also need to pop b4b as soon as it is available for their dps to be anywhere near respectable. Which makes them even more vulnerable to damage from those unavoidable magic aoe's.

    So to summarise:
    -Dragoons that perfectly execute their rotation will not be able to touch the dps output of a monk or ninja that executes their rotation perfectly.

    -Dragoons are punished for failing positionals much more harshly than monks or ninjas, meaning that mistakes made by a dragoon lower their dps output even further below a monk or ninja that makes the same mistakes.

    -They have no group utility.

    -They have terrible magic defence and are more likely to die in endgame than monks or ninja because of it.

    They face far greater risk of dropping dps due to their need for positionals, but their optimal dps is significantly below a monk or a ninja. Meaning that there is no reward for the increased risk of rolling dragoon. So they do less damage, they take more damage, they have no group utility.

    There is literally no reason why you would pick a dragoon over a ninja or monk in endgame. None. We now have many skilled dragoons from these forums declaring their intent to shift from Dragoon to monk or ninja; not because they prefer the play style of monk or ninja, but because Dragoon is outclassed by them and there is no point in playing them at endgame.

    This is not okay. This is not how the game should be. One class should not remain this gimped for this long.

    Why on earth have Yoshi and the dev team allowed this glaring imbalance to persist? When there was a problem with Warriors, they received an overhaul in 2.2. When people complained about black mages having a tough time in second coil, they got a damage buff. Dragoons have been weak for far too long, and the buffs to jumps (4-6 extra dps over 10 minutes, yay) do not address the very real flaws the class faces and has faced for far too long now.

    I am sorry if this comes across as entitled, or if it harshly worded, but i am pissed off and have had enough. I do not pay my subscription to play a gimped class. It is way past time that Yoshi and the dev team addressed this and actually did something about it, other than offer half arsed excuses about how jumps would be op if they were invincible. It is as if they are content to sit there and do nothing. I am not paying you to do nothing, people that want to play dragoon at endgame are not paying you to do nothing, stop sitting on your hands and fix the bloody class.
    (188)
    Last edited by beowulf81; 11-09-2014 at 12:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    lololink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,617
    Character
    Nel Artux
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf81 View Post
    Through utility? no. Ninja has a TP replenishing tool, a slashing debuff of 10% for tanks and other ninjas, a flat 10% damage increase for the entire party for 10 seconds. Monk can decrease the boss's magic damage by 10%, and increase heals to the party within certain range by 20%. Dragoons have…. nothing.
    *Cough* +10% damage to BRD *Cough*
    (24)

  3. #3
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,888
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    The wording is harsh, but I agree with the sentiment. It is past time for Dragoon to be re-tuned to the current performance meta.

    The problem is, we're offering a problem without a solution. Honestly, we're asking for a fix without giving any ideas.

    What's getting me is the mechanics are sort of limited in this aspect. Some ideas I had in mind were more relational. Say for the example: Dragonfire Dive gives an enemy a debuff that records the amount of damage done by all sources for the duration of that debuff, and then a percentage of that damage dealt is then applied again when the timer runs out.

    Or perhaps a specific skill, say Chaos Thrust, gains a potency increase when executed within a specific time after Spineshatter Dive or Jump.

    While I am enjoying the class and do not feel pressured to leave it, it is clear that the conversational tone regarding it is changing, and with Ninja now here, the pressure has never been harder to provide more performance level and depth to the class, to raise its skill floor and Ceiling higher than it was even originally tuned. The mantra that there needed to be an easy-to-understand DD class has faded in validity at this point, as Monk and Ninja have been proven to be more forgiving in the current combat climate. It is also still possible to increase performance without over-complicating its execution. (which is fairly unforgiving as it stands.)

    It would really be nice to get some official word on this from the community reps and developers? Are there any plans for changes soon for Dragoon?
    (30)

  4. #4
    Player
    Seoki's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    104
    Character
    Swift Slaughter
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 70
    It's a shame in my opinion that they are getting the shit end of the stick. I personally believe they need to increase potency and move on; save any drastic changes for the expansion where they might completely retool the class/job like they did to MRD/WAR.

    Honestly they're a fun class and really satisfying when everything is executed well, because of the punishment the kit brings.

    I think they can release a quick remedy by simply increasing all of it's potency in 2.45 and leaving it at that.

    Everyone who thinks NIN or MNK is more fun will stay there
    The people who love DRG will be happy with the increases.
    And we can all put this behind us, because as it's going now if SE doesn't respond. There will be blood (for blood).
    (11)

  5. #5
    Player
    HulveinBlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    892
    Character
    Hulvein Wyrmblood
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    It is past time for Dragoon to be re-tuned to the current performance meta.

    It would really be nice to get some official word on this from the community reps and developers? Are there any plans for changes soon for Dragoon?
    Agreed. Hoping we get one soon.
    (7)

  6. #6
    Player
    Andrens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    70
    Character
    Sagramore Impetuous
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Load of people are jumping already into the NIN train, especially after new MrHappy video. Fun start at 5.51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skqx...aUt-HBBZctO9cg

    Having only the Disembowel buff to BRDs means nothing. The truckload of utility+dps that others jobs can dish out is simply too much now.
    Before NIN you would have a point. But now it's too much

    Waiting for 3.0 and "hope" to have a buff seems a solution to you? I don't think so
    (9)
    Last edited by Andrens; 11-09-2014 at 02:29 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    melflomil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    637
    Character
    Hazel Mimelia
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 70
    I'm a healer at heart but I have Dragoon to the side
    Here is my two cents.

    All jumps should get 25-50 potency added to it.

    Elusive jump doesn't feel "elusive". For starters all jumps minus the standard jump got a time reduction. Why not Elusive jump? What would be so broken about it? Decrease time from 180 to 90-120. Secondly, remove the enmity reduction and give the ability to elude ground based AOE's that are avoidable ( anything that has a ground marker like Landslide, Acid rain etc).

    If they do this dragoons wont have to worry ALL THE TIME about jumping at the wrong time and getting destroyed buy avoidable aoe's because most of them are magic based. Just use elusive jump and you're SAFE

    I'm half on half about this next topic. I personally don't think they need it but they are the only class in the game that doesn't have one and BLM too. A utility buff that benefits EVERYONE, this will be up in the air for discussion. I say 15 second buff that increases critical hit.
    (7)

  8. #8
    Player
    Prototype909's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    532
    Character
    Haken Browning
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by lololink View Post
    *Cough* +10% damage to BRD *Cough*
    10% damage to Bard's -initial hits-. It doesn't buff the damage of their DoT ticks. To me, 10% to everyone in the parties' damage regardless of where it comes from is a lot more useful than that.

    Is Dragoon viable? Absolutely. Is it any way shape or form preferable to a Ninja or Monk from an unbiased numeric standpoint? Absolutely not.
    (12)
    Last edited by Prototype909; 11-09-2014 at 02:22 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    lololink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,617
    Character
    Nel Artux
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype909 View Post
    10% damage to Bard's -initial hits-. It doesn't buff the damage of their DoT ticks. To me, 10% to everyone in the parties' damage regardless of where it comes from is a lot more useful than that.

    Is Dragoon viable? Absolutely. Is it any way shape or form preferable to a Ninja or Monk from an unbiased numeric standpoint? Absolutely not.
    10 % to everyone for 1/6 of the time is less than an overall +2% dmg, BRD being 1/5 %(20 %) of the damage the +10 %( so it means party dps +2 %) is as useful.
    (4)

  10. #10
    Player
    Andrens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    70
    Character
    Sagramore Impetuous
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by lololink View Post
    10 % to everyone for 1/6 of the time is less than an overall +2% dmg, BRD being 1/5 %(20 %) of the damage the +10 %( so it means party dps +2 %) is as useful.
    Let everyone pop theyr CD/Potions during that +10%... you will understand
    (3)

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