Locked out of the Duty Finder.

[NyarukoW]

... you go off in people have issues with you.

Really. I go off on people. Last I checked you decide to argue over this starting with this:

...
are incredibly close minded....

I do NOT give credit for false equivalences. Just like people who come up all sorts of bogus argument for no global warming, just because they got their opinions and misinterpretted facts, does not give their argument any validity, nor should they get equal play. It is not about being close minded, it is about knowing where the facts are, where correctness should stand. If you are swayed so easily by bogus arguments, there is not much I can do. But it is my conviction that players should not abuse the DF, and it better to be one waiting for others on the DF than to take others granted and expect them to wait for you. The withdraw button is there so you do not keep others waiting and not for you to abuse to get the DF roulette of your choice and taking advantage of all the other player waiting.

[LaylaTsarra]

It *does* open the door to trolling things for groups, though. Put a partial together. Queue as partial, withdraw, have a few cheap giggles. Pass off lead, rinse, repeat. Honestly, if people wouldn't have been trolling queues and/or fishing for in progress (you can't queue for JIP as a group, but it still has to be taken into account) we wouldn't need something like this. I don't think SE is to blame for it; the people that were doing it were.

Yes those who abused the system are responsible for this. It wouldn't have been necessary otherwise. It's wonderful they implemented it and I think it is spot on, groups included. We have ready check and we have three strikes. If for whatever reason one exceeds that it's only a 30 minute penalty.

I'd be all in favor of issuing stricter penalties to those who thought/think cherry picking Duties in Progress was/is just fine and dandy.

[Giantbane]

It *does* open the door to trolling things for groups, though. Put a partial together. Queue as partial, withdraw, have a few cheap giggles. Pass off lead, rinse, repeat.

Say you've got a group of 3. If you gave out individual strikes, each member would get 2 free strikes, and then somebody would be on lockout after number 3. So 6 free strikes for "giggles" to troll the queue.

Say you took that group of 3 and decided to queue as individuals. They could each get 2 free strikes each, and then somebody would be on lockout after number 3. They can take turns trolling the queue for 6 free strikes for "giggles". You'll notice being in a group didn't give you any extra strikes. And anybody that dedicated to trolling is going to have a tank or healer to do it with. So punishing the group with additional strikes for those who didn't withdraw is unnecessary.

Honestly, if people wouldn't have been trolling queues and/or fishing for in progress (you can't queue for JIP as a group, but it still has to be taken into account) we wouldn't need something like this. I don't think SE is to blame for it; the people that were doing it were.

We're talking primarily about partial groups at the moment and whether or not it's appropriate to give strike to the whole group or the one who withdrew. In this scenario, you do NOT have to take fishing for in progress (or fishing for anything) into account because that does not exist for groups.

[Ashkendor]

You'll notice being in a group didn't give you any extra strikes. And anybody that dedicated to trolling is going to have a tank or healer to do it with. So punishing the group with additional strikes for those who didn't withdraw is unnecessary.

Eh, yeah, I guess you have a point; if you don't mind being locked out of the DF for awhile, it doesn't matter. There's always the ST/CT queues though; imagine queueing in a premade of 6 or 7 and what you could do. That admittedly is a very specific situation, but those queues are the absolute worst for withdrawals in my experience.

When we're talking about whether or not the person that withdrew should get a strike or the whole partial group should get a strike, you do NOT have to take fishing for in progress (or fishing for anything) into account because that does not exist because we're primarily talking about groups at the moment.

I more meant taking it into account for the system as a whole. Do I really like it? Eh. It's stopped a lot of the fishing/trolling, but I have been screwed by it a couple of times. I don't really actively like or dislike it, but I do believe that it was needed to stop a lot of the queue shenanigans that were going on.

[Fynlar]

Partial groups were still able to troll events too even before this withdraw penalty thing. Just look at Crystal Tower. All you needed was enough people to be the majority in the party and nobody could even kick you, potentially forcing an eventual vote abandon.

Even still, the amount of time they're able to do it for is limited, even with just the one person withdrawing getting dinged for it.

[Izsha]

Soooo.... I didn't read all 50 pages by a long shot. Is there a tldr?

I just see it rather simply. Goal: stop excessive withdraw spam. Solution add penalty to excessive withdraws. To prevent punishment for the occasional need to withdraw, add margin of error, 3 free withdraws. Simple. Elegant. Solves the problem.

What kinda horrible, trollish people do you guys run with that screw you over more than 3x a day? 3 is generally enough for any normal technical mishaps or random stuff. Ready check is a tool to avoid these issues. I can count on 1 hand the number of party withdraws I've been in since implementation, and 2 of those were me as lead cuing for the wrong instance.

Every system can be abused. The only way to prevent abuse is even more layers of crap which annoys everyone. Kinda like if you got 10 pop ups asking if you're really sure you are OK converting a piece of gear just because some guy accidentally converted his penta melded item by accident. 3 buffer is fine in 99% of the time. Once in a blue moon shit happens and you get a penalty. To bad so sad. Deal with it instead of imposing even more layers of bureaucratic crap to deal with every day just to stop that rare situation things go horribly wrong.

This fighting seems to be focused on the PRINCIPLE that it's wrong to be screwed by your group instead of the PRACTICAL use of the system which is generally going to work fine. The system is fine in practice. Don't get obsessed about the principle.

[Giantbane]

Eh, yeah, I guess you have a point; if you don't mind being locked out of the DF for awhile, it doesn't matter. There's always the ST/CT queues though; imagine queueing in a premade of 6 or 7 and what you could do. That admittedly is a very specific situation, but those queues are the absolute worst for withdrawals in my experience

I more meant taking it into account for the system as a whole. Do I really like it? Eh. It's stopped a lot of the fishing/trolling, but I have been screwed by it a couple of times. I don't really actively like or dislike it, but I do believe that it was needed to stop a lot of the queue shenanigans that were going on.

I agree the rampant queue withdraws were a problem. On the whole I'm disappointed in their solution because I think they could have done something more targeted to the causes of the withdraws combined with solutions to keep players from having to click commence 20 times to get in a dungeon. But I can live with the solo queue 3 strikes thing even if I don't think it wasn't the best way to fix the problem.

I just don't think the group penalty is necessary or warranted. I'm pretty sure individual 3 strike penalties, even within groups, would still be 99% as effective without any of the negative side effects.

[Kio]

My problem always has been there's not enough time given to click commence. I could be waiting on a queue for hours, finally decide to get up for an extremely short rest room break or to get a drink, and it's already popped and writhdrawn me. Not sure if I get penalized for it now, but it's basically just made me shy away from using the duty finder at all these days and not being able to enjoy content myself or help other players.

[Bayohne]

Greetings,

We implemented this new three-strike rule and its 30 minute penalty because we'd like players to be more mindful when pressing the withdraw button. As you know, when you queue up to the Duty Finder without a fully pre-made party, pressing the withdraw button after a match has been found will cause an inconvenience to other players.

We understand that this new penalty system can be frustrating for users who feel that they should not be punished for the actions of another party member. Therefore, in the future we will look into making adjustments so that only the party leader, or the player who pressed the withdraw button, will receive the penalty. With that said, we'd like to take time to look into this carefully as there may be methods that allow players to circumvent this.

[Noxifer]

One thing I've reacted to in this thread (well, there's been plenty of things, but... haven't seen this one addressed for a while) is the constant "use Ready Check" reiteration.

Well, the Ready Check only checks if people are ready when you sign up. Me and a couple of friends were trying to farm T1 earlier today; even with two tanks and two dps, we sat in queue for half an hour, waiting for those pesky healers :3
Say we'd been one tank and three dps (as we were before one of us switched for faster queue times). The queue could easily have been twice that if not longer. What good did that ready check do when twenty or forty minutes into the queue someone has to "brb bio"? Or, as actually did happen, one of us 90ked (we did withdraw at that time, actually, just to avoid the queue popping before they made it back online)? We were all ready when we signed up, but just because you're ready to click "commence" at 9pm (as an example), it doesn't mean you're ready at 10.15pm when the queue actually pops.

And... I fail to see how it's worse for a partial group of three people to queue troll ST without shared strikes than it would be for three people to individually troll (as tanks, for example) up to THREE alliances. That's a lot more people inconvenienced, isn't it?

Edit:

stuff

♥ Thank you, Bayohne!