Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Nephera]

I feel like we should examine how other skillful games do boss fights with our brand new shiny engine and less at how three generation old MMOs did them. (Not to discount them entirely, this is basically all the best parts of the "Classic" style MMO)

There's definitely problems with what we have now if we're just going to straight up pull the "get good" card.

[Anyssa]

^

Agreed. And solutions are simple - have plumes go off .5-1 seconds after being cast to adjust for latency. That doesn't diminish the difficulty, it allows for latency issues.

As an aside, I've done raiding in plenty of games, and to be honest, I prefer the fights where you can carry one or two people - it just makes it so non-hardcore gamers can raid/fight alongside their guildmates (it promotes bonding). Instead of creating room for error, I've seen game after game create these incredibly difficult fights that lock-out tons of content and then what you see is people turning on each other and becoming toxic.

The wannabe elites? They love that toxic stuff because they can claim superiority in a *game* and feel like they're *hardcore*. But in reality they're the obnoxious arrogant know-it-alls who would rather see that content locked away from people than seeing it opened up. I've been guilty of acting like that at times and it's not good for the game's community or longevity.

[Darus]

I think this post could really help the devs learn a thing or two about keeping people interested in the game. I never really thought about it, but these really are issues that should be looked at from a new perspective.

[RyuDragnier]

You know, I see so many people complaining that "I can do my part in the fight, dodge, etc, but I get in groups with other people that can't." Are there really that many people that aren't in FCs and are having to pug so much content? That aren't in FCs that will help their FC mates with content? When I formed my FC, I built it on the foundation that we WILL help each other. I don't want people in my FC that are just going to only do content that they themselves need or want. I use a google spreadsheet to track each members progress and so I have a list of players that need Titan X. Each week I try to get at least 1 or 2 people thru it by taking them in a group of 6 or 7 of us that have beaten the fight before.
Are there really so few FCs out there that do things this way? I mean, this is pretty much the whole point of the game for me personally...

Once upon a time my former FC had people willing to help others, officers willing to get people through things. But that all changed after 2nd Coil came out along with the Echo. The officers kept shunning FC members and didn't bother asking if we wanted to do things, instead doing things with other FCs, such as Levi Ex, Mog Ex, and Turn 5 until they completed it. This hurt me (one of the shunned despite being an amazing MNK who knows Turn 5 and Levi Ex very well) and my irl friend, who was formerly one of the officers. But we both left after they started not doing anything with anybody not an officer.

I'm pretty sure that FC is currently dying or dead because of this, and I really hope they are (because if you want to do things with just officers, make your own FC or boot everybody else out of it). This is also part of the reason why I no longer have any motivation to do Turn 5 currently or any other endgame content, I can't trust statics to remain static any longer or the people in them (other than my irl friend).

[Yukiko]

^

Agreed. And solutions are simple - have plumes go off .5-1 seconds after being cast to adjust for latency. That doesn't diminish the difficulty, it allows for latency issues.

As an aside, I've done raiding in plenty of games, and to be honest, I prefer the fights where you can carry one or two people - it just makes it so non-hardcore gamers can raid/fight alongside their guildmates (it promotes bonding). Instead of creating room for error, I've seen game after game create these incredibly difficult fights that lock-out tons of content and then what you see is people turning on each other and becoming toxic.

The wannabe elites? They love that toxic stuff because they can claim superiority in a *game* and feel like they're *hardcore*. But in reality they're the obnoxious arrogant know-it-alls who would rather see that content locked away from people than seeing it opened up. I've been guilty of acting like that at times and it's not good for the game's community or longevity.

I was searching the whole day, but havnt found yet... posting is a bit old...
Yoshi said (or a Dev) They will not increase delay of AoE attacks because then the content would become too easy!
I know its there, just rereading a lot old stuff is hard work... I will edit when i have found it.

And I can agree 100% to what you said... I think every oldschool player experienced this in some way or another...

Update: Have found it

part 2
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Source: http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/interview/20131213_627195.html

(..)

GW: At the first half of Producer Letter LIVE you mentioned that the instance battles will feel better from patch 2.1. How will it change? Can you please go into details?

Yoshida: During beta say two players fought each other in Wolves’ Den. Say a Monk was in from of the white mage and it was trying to hit the white mage, if the white mage made a quick turn the packet information isn’t updated so there will be a gap between the data and what’s seen on screen. We made it so the information on this movement is sent instantly so it’s matching closer to what you see on screen. We were able to put this in without putting much stress.

GW: So it doesn’t mean that it will break the regular 0.3 second wall, and send/receive packet information at much faster rate?

Yoshida: The 0.3 second is absolute value that’s in almost every MMORPG, if we change this it will break the server specs, 0.3 seconds is a stable number so that why it’s close to tradition.

GW: You mentioned that the feel is going to be better on certain areas, but which areas in particular are we talking about here?

Yoshida: Hard mode, extreme mode primals, all high level dungeon post Wanderers Palace, Hard Mode Ultima weapon, Crystal Tower. however we may just do this for all dungeons.

GW: I forgot how long ago but when I started playing FFXIV I checked the Ping to Square-Enixs server. (Laugh) reason why was because I had experience of being pushed off the edge with land slide from Titan Hard Mode, I was thinking to myself “I dodged that for sure, why!” and that’s when I checked, at that time I was using the smart phones tethering to play. So when I checked it was slow. Went back home and checked again and the Ping was in the one digit and was easy to dodge. The previous FFXIV’s server lag was really horrible, but for FFXIV ARR for the lags it’s most likely a problem with the local side environment. However, there are many out there that claim it’s the game sides issue and it’s hard.

Yoshida: I can’t talk about that from my end so please do so from GAME Watch’s side (laugh).

GW: It’s really simple matter, if you can just release ping check tool to game server it will resolve this issue.

Yoshida: It’s not so easy to add that officiallly when there are several ISP’s involved.

GW: But, since we all know the IP it’s possible to add it in the benchmark program to show when players check the PC performance so they can understand the issue. I really think the current situation is unfair. People still mentioning it even after FFXIV ARRs launch must mean that there are that much people that is misunderstanding.

*don’t bash the messenger (translator)... I’m just translating what’s on here... I got lag too (I don’t fully agree with above statements, specially it’s different for NA/EU players.)

Yoshida: What I can official say from my end is that if you’re really going to fully go into the contents please have the best environment. But this is really hard, there are those that will say “You are the one creating the Online Game, you prepare that type of environment”, or look over it and make adjustments so you can dodge those.

GW: That’s impossible.

Yoshida: It is, if we do that we can’t make difficult contents.

GW: If you’re able to dodge with 3 digit Ping then it’s not fun as a game

........./tableflip 3 digit ping is regular for me... (calm down)

Yoshida: We would need to extend the time players have to dodge. But doing that will make the content super easy, so it’s impossible.

GW: This one is a complicated issue

Yoshida: Yes, there are many instances where it requires a lot of movement for end tier contents.

GW: But from the players side, they will keep on saying that something is definitely wrong with this game since they are dodging for sure on their screen. I think this isn’t good for both sides.

Yoshida: We have saying on our side too “I dodged it on my screen!” there are people who keep on hitting the trap every time and someone told that person “Stop doing it!” and he said “I dodged it on my screen!” when he said that another person who was calm mentioned “Then reinstall the game, your game is bugged” (laugh).
Putting the joke aside, the measure we put in this time will post the position you stopped so it should reflect the rendered image directly. This one is hard to explain, but I believe it should feel much easier to dodge. Even for extreme mode primal battles difficulty was adjusted thinking of this.

(..)

[Nephera]

Instead of creating room for error, I've seen game after game create these incredibly difficult fights that lock-out tons of content and then what you see is people turning on each other and becoming toxic.

The wannabe elites? They love that toxic stuff because they can claim superiority in a *game* and feel like they're *hardcore*. But in reality they're the obnoxious arrogant know-it-alls who would rather see that content locked away from people than seeing it opened up. I've been guilty of acting like that at times and it's not good for the game's community or longevity.

This is basically how XI got a reputation for being unapproachable and how MOBAs got the playerbase they have now.

[Gormogon]

This is basically how XI got a reputation for being unapproachable and how MOBAs got the playerbase they have now.

LoL is very successful despite having such a toxic community because the content they deliver is constant, simple, and subjectively fun. Though overall progressive.

Was really hoping that the PS4 development cycle was the restrictive issue behind creativity and neglecting content for mainstream/casuals and I still want to believe that it's 2.3/2.4 content that is restricting their ability but I can only be so optimistic before I burn out from all the positive and wishful thinking.

[Rubeus_Carcer]

@OP: I thought you might like to know, I've linked your post with a translation request into the French and German forums. If the dissenters really believe that they're the majority and people are just whining through nostalgia goggles and want things handed to them and gear shouldn't mean much and skill = memorization, perhaps we can get a larger perspective on the subject. Clearly the Japanese and English forums "Like" feature seems to disagree with the dissenting opinion, and I personally also agree with the OP. I've read every single page of this thread, and if you haven't "gotten what we're saying" by now, you aren't going to. I'm not in the business of beating dead horses or digging my heels in to bandy a point to anyone too stubborn to listen, so I'm leaving it at that. I'll be keeping an eye on the French and German forums, though.

[Lego3400]

Honeslty I've always felt "Dodge dodge dodge" with no room for error was a boring as hell mechanic and unfreindly to those who lag slightly.

Fights shouldn't be about timeing, they should be about the boss. Make more end game bosses summon adds that need to be killed, or enemies that have placement requirements or you get smacked in the face, or eneimes that need to be kited, etc, Bosses need more unique mechanics not just "Dodge, dodge, Dodge more"

[Ghastly]

^
As an aside, I've done raiding in plenty of games, and to be honest, I prefer the fights where you can carry one or two people - it just makes it so non-hardcore gamers can raid/fight alongside their guildmates (it promotes bonding). Instead of creating room for error, I've seen game after game create these incredibly difficult fights that lock-out tons of content and then what you see is people turning on each other and becoming toxic.

The wannabe elites? They love that toxic stuff because they can claim superiority in a *game* and feel like they're *hardcore*. But in reality they're the obnoxious arrogant know-it-alls who would rather see that content locked away from people than seeing it opened up. I've been guilty of acting like that at times and it's not good for the game's community or longevity.

This a thousand times.