The True Nature of The Echo

[Saikou]

Yeah, you've seen the trailer. If you haven't seen the Through The Maelstrom 2.2 Patch Trailer, do yourself a favor and go watch it now. Glorious voice acting makes its return to our main scenario quests.

And Minfillia is heard asking this bajillion gil question. Personally, I don't think we'll actually get an answer this patch. The answer to the question is too central to the mythos here.

We here at the lore forum have speculated at length on this topic, however. Whether or not it constitutes a tempering of us by Hydaelyn, or if it is merely a gift of The Mothercrystal. It is also concerning that Eldibs has an interest in it, his intentions unknown. What does this portend for encounters with The Ascians?

I just feel like this is such a tease for us lore wonks. Because of all the central unknowns of this game, the answer to Minfillia's question is certainly one of the biggest.

I'm looking forward to discussing the plot developments of patch 2.2 with all of you.

[Enkidoh]

Personally I think that's just tying up a loose plot line from version 1.0, where the player was always told that Minfilia and the Path of the Twelve really didn't know that much about the Echo and it's true extent (she didn't even know who or what had even given the player it in the first place at the time - of course it's now pretty much assumed (without being stated outright) that the Mothercrystal is the one responsible.

As I've said before in past threads on the subject though, I disagree that those 'woken' to the Echo's power is a form of tempering, simply because the two concepts are very different - tempering strips a person of their free will, their very life and personality, leaving them a mindless shell, and grants them no apparent special abilities other than what that person already possessed. It's whole purpose is to create an army of zealous followers to a Primal, as that's how they derive their strength, through worship. The Echo on the other hand, merely grants those so affected with special abilities (what would be termed psychic abilities in the real world), their personality, memories, and most importantly, free will, remain intact.

Hence, even though the Mothercrystal may guide a Woken (ala, an Echo user), like She does throughout ARR's storyline, how that person uses their power is ultimately up to them - in fact 1.0 showed plenty of Echo users seeming to use their powers for more self-centered/avaricistic ends, such as the lalafell that was at the Waking Sands who boasted that his Echo-given ability to understand language (xenoglossia) had proven to be very 'profitable' for him, suggesting he was making money as a translator.

In any event, yes, the upcoming storyline looks like it's going to be taking things in interesting directions. I can't wait.

[Gesser]

I think they are going to pull a LOST on us.

[Keriaku]

As I've said before in past threads on the subject though, I disagree that those 'woken' to the Echo's power is a form of tempering, simply because the two concepts are very different - tempering strips a person of their free will, their very life and personality, leaving them a mindless shell, and grants them no apparent special abilities other than what that person already possessed. It's whole purpose is to create an army of zealous followers to a Primal, as that's how they derive their strength, through worship. The Echo on the other hand, merely grants those so affected with special abilities (what would be termed psychic abilities in the real world), their personality, memories, and most importantly, free will, remain intact.

While keeping in mind the player-avatar distinction most video games don't generally question, this made me think. Perhaps the Echo is a form of tempering which allows us (the players) to inhabit the bodies of the characters. If you think of the character you control as an actual person once, we as players are kind of overwriting their will with our own.

I find this idea personally pretty interesting, even if the world might not ever endorse it. Imagine if every character running around used to be someone with a family and a life who might not ever have wanted to be fighting. But since having gained the Echo and having been embodied by a transcendent warrior of light (us) and are now going around gaining power and fighting throughout the realm. It makes sense to me that for us players to inhabit Eorzea something would have to go to let us in, perhaps being the mind of a single person who we take over.

This definitely puts a slightly sinister spin on what Hydaelyn does. It also has a Fal'Cie/L'Cie vibe from the FNC lore. It's a neat idea that Hydaelyn may have to called to us beyond her realm to restore balance to the world. It's also an interesting thought that perhaps the Primals are 'playing' the people they have tempered in much the same way we play our character.

[Alice_89th]

While I am not sure what the echo really is, it seems to me that it has to do something with tempering (to some extend) at least.

I do not remember the exact words, but it the 1.0 storyline Ifrit (upon failing to temper you) mentions that you already belong to another. Which I assume to be one of the Twelve, or the Mothercrystal. In ARR it seemed more like it was the Echo preventing you from being tempered, in that cutscene in 1.0 it sounded like you already "belonged" to another, and the Echo was something (unknowingly) you gained from that.

[Enkidoh]

The thing is, at first Ifrit believes the player to indeed have been tempered by another Primal (he rattles off Garuda, Titan and Leviathan specifically), then towards the end of the scene, he tells the player that "the Paragon warned of the godless blessed", meaning they are not tempered at all, because after all, only a Primal (ala, a 'god', can temper), and it just seems that the Primals only know what the Ascians tell them, and hence, because they don't know any different, assume that the Echo is simply tempering.

It should also be noted Ifrit calls the Echo specifically 'the taint', which is not how the Primals usually refer to tempering. I have the whole dialogue from that scene saved incidentally, including the snarky comebacks by my Path Companion.

(Note: my Path Companion was a female miqo'te GLA so the exact words from the Companion in that scene were most likely different depending on what race and gender they were. But it's most likely the basic context of the dialogue was consistent regardless of what Path Companion you had)

Amalj'aa: "O mighty Ifrit! Lord of the Inferno and Champion of the Sun! Thy humble servants have summoned Thee forth from the boundless aether, that Thou might cleanse these heathens' souls of their transgressions with Thine holy flames!"
Path Companion: "Wait! Does the god fear what we might have to say?"
Path Companion: "My companion and I walk the Path of the Twelve. It has brought us to you in the name of peace - peace to all Eorzea."
Path Companion: "As you know, the Garlean Empire threatens that peace, and would take our lands for it's own. What you may not know is that the Empire has offered it's "protection" to the city-states, on the condition that they surrender to Imperial rule... and aid in the extermination of the beast-tribes."
Path Companion: "Know that this is the very opposite of what we want. Yet alone, we cannot hope to best the might of the Empire, and nor can you. That is why our leader, Lady Minfilia, proposes an alliance, that we might use our combined strength to drive the Garleans from our lands, and secure lasting peace for Eorzea."
(Ifrit jumps up and prepares to fire his tempering spell)
Path Companion: "Wait! You must listen to-"
(Ifrit casts his blue flames on everyone in the vicinity, knocking the prisoners to the ground but the player and their Path Companion are unharmed, and look confusedly at each other)
Amalj'aa: "Throughout history, your kind has repaid our gestures of goodwill with naught but acts of injustice. How are we to take your utterances as true?"
Amalj'aa: "We cannot! The heathens must die, their blood a gift to Lord Ifrit!"
(The now tempered prisoners stand up zombie-like and linger near the player and the Path Companion ominously)
Path Companion: "This is not good."
Path Companion: " Gods, the flames must have done something to their minds! We must find a way to bring them to their senses, perhaps a moment from their past?"
(A battle then occurs against the tempered prisoners. After defeating them, by simply dealing enough damage they 'give up the will to fight', the player then has to fight amal'jaa, before Ifrit jumps down and ends the battle)
Ifrit: "You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid."
Ifrit: "To which do you kneel mortals?"
Path Companion: "I kneel to whomever I desire-but Primals are not to my taste!"
Ifrit: "Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune."
Path Companion: "Between myself and my companion, I have all the protection I need."
Amalj'aa: "Blasphemy! Death to the heathens!"
Amalj'aa: "Mind your tongue when speaking to the Lord of the Inferno, lest we cut it out!"
Ifrit: "Your blindness is born of ignorance."
Ifrit: "I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda... or Titan? Perchance... Leviathan?"
Path Companion: "Whatever you smell on me, it is not the scent of a Primal."
Ifrit: "Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed."
Ifrit: "There can be only one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked."
Ifrit: "Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall-on one condition."
Ifrit: "Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of another. Do so, and you sins shall be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity."
Amalj'aa: "On your knees heathens! And give your oath! In the name of Ifrit, Almighty Lord of the Inferno!"
Amalj'aa: "Almighty Lord of the Inferno!"
Path Companion: "You're not serious?! You think me alluring enough to attract a god do you?"
Path Companion: "But how?!"

It's interesting reading this dialogue because in hindsight, Ifrit not only alluded to Zodiark in his 'one true god' comment (at the time, I actually thought Ifrit was referring to himself), but that not only does he not find the idea of people being able to resist his Tempering particularly suprising (nor do the amalj'aa, who simply call the player and the Path Companion 'heathens'), he assumes it's because the player and their Path Companion are already tempered by another Primal - only to then throw that idea out the window by referring to them as 'the godless blessed', and calling the Echo 'the taint', suggesting to him it's against the 'true order of things'. And then there's the comment (that was not carried into ARR) that the player can summon their own Primal with the Echo. Because this particular point was never raised again in 1.0, it can simply be considered retconned I guess though.

[Anonymoose]

It's interesting reading this dialogue because in hindsight, Ifrit not only alluded to Zodiark in his 'one true god' comment (at the time, I actually thought Ifrit was referring to himself)

Was he not? I still think he was. Garuda did the same thing; all the aether and crystals are "MINE MINE MINE MIIIINE!!!!!"

Every zealot thinks their god is the One True God - and each one supposedly has dominion over delivering some eventual world-wide reckoning.

[Orophin]

I thought it was more interesting that the Paragon (Ascian) told Ifrit to "spare us" if he ran into "godless blessed" ones.

Anyway, near the end of the 2.1 story Elidibus had some interesting things to say about the Echo:

Elidibus: "The gift grants you clarity; it grants you focus. With it, you may in time come to see us as we are, rather than this crude approximation."
Minfilia: "Lahabrea did not think so highly of the Echo."
Elidibus: "Lahabrea is wrong about a great many things. The Echo is indeed a gift─albeit one you have yet to master."
Minfilia: "And if we did?"
Elidibus: "There would be no strife between our peoples─for we would be of one mind."

I want to know what's so special about the Echo that once we have mastery over it will grant us such clarity that Elidibus thinks we will want to live in harmony with the Ascians. Will we see them as they truly are (the 1.0 images of them looking like a grim reaper of sorts) and we will be so fearful of them that we will submit to them and their God? (that hardly seems "of one mind") Is Hydaelyn something other than a benevolent deity?

Too many questions. The story still has a long way to go.

[Saikou]

Orophin, I believe the grim reaper Ascian was an even cruder approximation of what they truly are. I'd like to see the return of Travanchet as one of Lahabrea's beast tribe emissaries. The Ascian goal in Limsa, the nature and purpose of the horns (seen both in Ul'dah and Limsa), and the Ascian agenda for the Sahagin is a mystery that begs a solution. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that before Yoshida came on board and the Seventh Umbral Era arc started that the Ascians and the Paragons were not intended to be the same thing. This would explain the discrepancy between Travanchet and the grim reaper Ascian. Unless Travanchet was a normal Elezen being possessed... So many 1.0 things I still want answers for. 2.1 was so satisfying for giving at least some closure to us old Ul'dah players. The mystery of Nielle still remains, though Yoshida has said he'd like to return to that at some point.

[Akoree]

Will we see them as they truly are (the 1.0 images of them looking like a grim reaper of sorts) and we will be so fearful of them that we will submit to them and their God? (that hardly seems "of one mind")

I think he mostly meant that we would understand their motives and in time, join them (instead of submiting to them). It would make sense that mastering the Echo could allow us to see further back in time and allow us to see the things they have witnessed or know about. (Because it is most efficient to wait for someone to master an odd ability to see an event you could simply tell them about.)

I remember reading about a the theory that Hydaelyn is actually a form of "parasite" or that it has overthrown the former power to "rule the world". I for one would like to think of the Mother Crystal as a benevolent being that wants "light" and life in general to prosper under its guidance, rather than some power-hungry maniacal rock. =|