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  1. #21
    Player
    Galoot's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    85
    Character
    Notorious Galoot
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 50
    I heard alot talk about striking with the bow which would be cool, but still you would have to be close range. Either way if any Archers haven't noticed, we hit alot harder than any other DD job already so I'm not worried about the lack of AA. Only thing that I'm really concerned about is to see what kind've recast times these abilities will have. If it's adjusted well enough to where it won't make a difference and Light shot is about a 3-5 second recast, then there is no difference. Since our melee AA would be lower DMG and our ranged attacks take a few seconds to activate, the recast/lack of stamina bar might be in our favor. I'll wait til it's out to pass judgement, because we are OP'd LOL...just praying multishot will kick in 2 arrows if the recast is long.
    (0)
    Last edited by Galoot; 07-09-2011 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #22
    Player
    Nexxus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lyon
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Yoko Ceres
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Auto-attack with an arbalest or a gun (with unlimited ammo), even a gunblade :Q__
    (0)

    Il est possible de dépassé la limite des 1ooo caractères, il suffit d'éditer son post ~

  3. #23
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    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    150
    Ermmm just my two cents but when I read:

    For instance, archers will strike with their bare fists
    I just assumed that wasn't a 'real' attack, like on FFXI when you didn't have a weapon equipped you would hit with your fists (say RDM?) even though it did crap all damage.

    I don't forsee there being a good reason to get close to the mob as ARC, seems more like a programming design issue. Something like:

    "Ahh I'm not rewriting all of the cose just because Archer doesn't have a melee weapon... just let them hit with their fists and people will just not use it when they figure out it's not meant to work like that"

    Of course, time will tell =)
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player
    Esk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    604
    Character
    Esk N'tania
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    lol I just though well that's a a bit pft.. really now isn't it.
    I can see kind of why did it that way. (were being group'd wit casters is my guess)
    But i would at least like an offhand weapon (similar to pug maybe) with a new melee moves to go with it if they are not going to give us a ranged auto attack.
    And for them to keep an eye on the dps balance of us not really having one, as i would guess the calculations are actually based on us butt hugging the mobs and using it.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player

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    Jul 2011
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    Gridania
    Posts
    33
    Honest to God people. My following post is with all due respect...

    I've been leveling up ARC and it's just fine. If you really are archer buffs, then think of the time it takes to really load an arrow and fire a shot in RL. =P

    But I digress...

    About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

    If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

    Think of what other DDs would think if they were useless because you had a ranged AA stacking on TP as ARC. Meanwhile, neither CON nor THM had those ranged AAs. It would entice more drama.

    Ok, so then your solution to this would be to give ARC, CON, THM all ranged AAs. So what do LNC, GLA, and PUG get? Nothing? Those throwing weapons perhaps? Oh but, why do you guys get ranged AAs and why would LNC, GLA and PUG have to BUY their ranged attacks?

    My point in case, stop thinking about yourselves and think about the bigger picture, then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to jump on FFXIV's devs, and realize that these changes are necessary.

    The lesser of 2 evils are being chosen to balance this game and make it the way it should be, what a lot of people are doing now are whining and choosing the would be greater of 2 evils, which is why you are not developing this game.

    Instead, why not be positive and ADD to this game and to the community by giving helpful tips and advice to newer people coming into the game instead of dashing their hopes and bursting their bubbles? A lot more people would appreciate it, the FFXIV community would improve and you won't be flamed on these forums for just being a troll

    Peace.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dacen; 07-23-2011 at 04:28 AM.

  6. #26
    Player
    Capita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    318
    Character
    Souma Kisa
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacen View Post
    About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

    If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.
    I take it you've never played a game where Archers had ranged AA?

    It adds some great versatility and strategy, knowing when the right time was to AA and when not to. Good Archers knew how to control their AA so they wouldn't break CC, or so they wouldn't use up a buff.

    Infinite arrows isn't something I'd like. I like the idea of having to pay for damage, but having more versatile damage as a tradeoff. I don't see how a ranged AA would take away from the class at all.

    So to answer your question: If I were a Dev, I'd add a ranged AA and modify abilities to work in conjunction with it instead of against it. And force melee if a mob gets close, which would then force skillful play from the player since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.

    The way the Devs implemented AA in this game is just them being too lazy to implement something that's more exciting and rewarding if done properly.

    No offense, but you should play other games before you make posts like these knocking ranged AA.
    (0)
    Last edited by Capita; 07-23-2011 at 05:08 AM.
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  7. #27
    Player
    Platinumstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    705
    Character
    Chardut Mazzma
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 60
    I really hope that an alternative to auto attack will be created for archers in the future. The way it works right now is not fun.
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player

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    Jul 2011
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    Gridania
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Capita View Post
    I take it you've never played a game where Archers had ranged AA?

    It adds some great versatility and strategy, knowing when the right time was to AA and when not to. Good Archers knew how to control their AA so they wouldn't break CC, or so they wouldn't use up a buff.

    Infinite arrows isn't something I'd like. I like the idea of having to pay for damage, but having more versatile damage as a tradeoff. I don't see how a ranged AA would take away from the class at all.

    So to answer your question: If I were a Dev, I'd add a ranged AA and modify abilities to work in conjunction with it instead of against it. And force melee if a mob gets close, which would then force skillful play from the player since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.

    The way the Devs implemented AA in this game is just them being too lazy to implement something that's more exciting and rewarding if done properly.

    No offense, but you should play other games before you make posts like these knocking ranged AA.
    Indeed, I have played other games, and yes I understand that ranged AA can work...with those games. This isn't "other games" this is FFXIV. Just as the mechanics for this game vary to the other games, as does the behaviour and skill sets of classes.

    You are telling me to play other games before bashing ranged AA, I was never bashing ranged AA. As a matter of fact, if there was any bashing, it's to the reaction of others on this forum. I was simply stating that ranged AA would not work in this game.

    And yes, I have played other games with ranged AA. Perhaps you are a WoW player who decided to try this game? It's because I have played other games with ranged AA that it makes sense to me that perhaps it would not work in this game as it did not happen with FFXI either.

    You are comparing apples to oranges mi'lady. Don't seek to turn approval for ranged AA based off of experiences from other games. Doing so would only mean you want to implement other MMOs into this one, and therefore, turn this into a melting pot of other MMOs as opposed to keeping it FFXIV.

    However, having said that, I do like some of the constructive ideas that you stated, such as:

    since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.
    I prefer to see (and I'm sure everyone can attest) more posts like that as opposed to people just trolling and degrading the community. I'm sure SE appreciates these more too, because then, based on community feedback, perhaps we WILL see such changes. As such, these are what Original Posts should comprise of. Good stuff =)
    (1)
    Last edited by Dacen; 07-23-2011 at 06:31 AM.

  9. #29
    Player
    Esk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    604
    Character
    Esk N'tania
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacen View Post

    About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

    If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

    Think of what other DDs would think if they were useless because you had a ranged AA stacking on TP as ARC. Meanwhile, neither CON nor THM had those ranged AAs. It would entice more drama.

    Ok, so then your solution to this would be to give ARC, CON, THM all ranged AAs. So what do LNC, GLA, and PUG get? Nothing? Those throwing weapons perhaps? Oh but, why do you guys get ranged AAs and why would LNC, GLA and PUG have to BUY their ranged attacks?

    My point in case, stop thinking about yourselves and think about the bigger picture, then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to jump on FFXIV's devs, and realize that these changes are necessary.

    The lesser of 2 evils are being chosen to balance this game and make it the way it should be, what a lot of people are doing now are whining and choosing the would be greater of 2 evils, which is why you are not developing this game.

    Instead, why not be positive and ADD to this game and to the community by giving helpful tips and advice to newer people coming into the game instead of dashing their hopes and bursting their bubbles? A lot more people would appreciate it, the FFXIV community would improve and you won't be flamed on these forums for just being a troll

    Peace.
    Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

    Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
    But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

    Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
    Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
    Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

    But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
    Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
    Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
    This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

    Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
    However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

    So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.
    (0)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esk View Post
    Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

    Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
    But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

    Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
    Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
    Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

    But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
    Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
    Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
    This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

    Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
    However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

    So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.
    Let's take a step back for a moment and look what happens if we implemented your thoughts and ideas, which others surely share

    As I see it, a short bow has a delay of about 3.5s, and a long bow about 4.1s...you want to implement a ranged AA? ok. Then that means "Light Shot" is out of the picture, or perhaps given a delay like other classes, 30s. Btw, "Light Shot" currently has a cool down of about 2-3s and generates a healthy amount of TP, I can say after 2 shots I can already initiate a TP skill.

    But what happens now? A ranged AA with a higher delay than "Light Shot" (which you can already activate anyway), and you want it to have a lower TP generation? Aren't you going a little backwards here? What if THAT misses, and more than once? Suddenly, ARC and their Ranged AA have even less control than they have now, and you'll feel even more useless...not to mention that'll open up a whole new can of complaints, wouldn't you agree?

    And yet, even if "Light Shot" or other Ranged AAs were still reduced with their cool down timers to compliment the low TP generation, we would be back right where we started (but w/o the stamina bar) and once again, people would be so focused on their non-tp based attacks, that they would suffer with spam keys and therefore be able to focus less (which was just fixed). Now, include a ranged AA in the mix, and it'll be a drastically OP situation (which was just fixed as well)

    A lot of people are missing the bigger picture, yes a melee AA is pretty useless for ARC, but any sort of AA for ARC is not needed. Think of it as a different play style from the rest of the classes that they are trying to implement. If I play a certain class, I want to feel like I'm playing that class and not merely a melting pot of other classes which pre 1.18 really felt like, don't you agree?

    So no, you are not forced to do anything, especially make ARC act like unarmed melee. You just feel you must act this way since they implemented it.

    Solution:

    /eaction 1 "Light Shot"
    /eaction 2 "Close Shot"

    And you'll appreciate you have a 2-3s cooldown with healthy TP generation as opposed to a 3.5s - 4.1s ranged AA delay that could miss just as likely anyway. Now please tell me which would be more frustrating when it misses.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dacen; 07-24-2011 at 12:25 AM.

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