MT Garuda ex

[leprov]

Pretty simple question : why do MT tank suparna instead of chirada? I understand that in a full premade group it can be efficient, but with pugs, I find this pretty random.

Simple reason is that, from my experience, it's way more consistent to tank chirada. You can accurately predict the WW, and avoid feather rain. That's just less risk imo, which is important when you go with random people.
When you tank suparna+garuda, double WW can happen before the jump, OR after the jump (depending on DPS on 2nd add? this is my understanding). So if I wait the AE on the ground, then pop sentinel, it's just a bet : I can mitigate damage if dps is low, or loose the cooldown cause of teleport if dps is good, and have to use a second CD. If I wait for the jump, it's a bet and I could easily get one shoted.

I'm not trying to convince that "tanking chirada is a better method", I'm just saying that I find it more consistent for pug groups, just because it seems to me that an average group.
So I was wondering the reason why people apply this method : is it just popular even if it's not really good for pug groups (since it can be inconsistent depending on the group. Can be good for a static though), or if there is a mechanic a misunderstand there....

[samircury]

U know that suparna and garuda switch place when they jump right ?

[Skull_Angel]

U know that suparna and garuda switch place when they jump right ?

That (jump) only seems to happen when Chirada's hp hits 50%, which shouldn't normally happen if you tank Garuda + Chirada and focus down Suparna (I've only seen it happen when a mage prematurely LBs Garuda + Chirada with Suparna still up). Neither method is inherently better, as you should use the one that best suits your group composition and skill/awareness level.

[kukurumei]

That (jump) only seems to happen when Chirada's hp hits 50%, which shouldn't normally happen if you tank Garuda + Chirada and focus down Suparna (I've only seen it happen when a mage prematurely LBs Garuda + Chirada with Suparna still up). Neither method is inherently better, as you should use the one that best suits your group composition and skill/awareness level.

Not really, suprana would wicked wheel your melees, making that one fine mess. If you do all range, you might as go suprana anyway, because it makes no difference to wicked and then you get garuda regens with the strong lines.

And then you get feather all over the place and anyone hit by feathers will get a wind debuff, and will most likely die even inside the bubble.

MTing garuda and suprana is not easy, but tanks have to suck it up, because really, you're expected to tank even harder stuff after garuda ex.

It all comes down to the MT and healers...Mostly MT, 30 second of rotating CDs, or...you keep pumping out heals for 1minute. So in the end, while you can't blame a MT for not being able to tank that phase, the same applies, why can't you? It's 30 seconds of making sure you have CDs?

Basically it's the MT going "I don't want to deal with this shit, you all just have to do what I can't".

And it's not the healers. Most any healer/blm/smn can preshield/stoneskin/and virus a MT on surpana for 30 seconds. If they're not, then chirada isn't going to make a difference because you'll most likely burn through your mp and die anyway.

[Gourry_Gabriev]

Once the you practice it a few times, the pattern is pretty easy to get down for tanking Garuda+Suparna.

The very first double ww comes after Suparna casts friction, so as a PLD I use rampart+foresight and flash for the chance of a dodge.

All add phases after that, just pop rampart+foresight shortly after Garuda spawns the tornadoes and they will still be up when ww hits. Of course you also use flash for these too.

With this method, bulwark and sentinel are still available should you need to eat another ww due to things going wrong, or you can alternate them on add phases for the additional mitigation if you need. Also Stoneskin yourself when possible.

[kukurumei]

Once the you practice it a few times, the pattern is pretty easy to get down for tanking Garuda+Suparna.

The very first double ww comes after Suparna casts friction, so as a PLD I use rampart+foresight and flash for the chance of a dodge.

All add phases after that, just pop rampart+foresight shortly after Garuda spawns the tornadoes and they will still be up when ww hits. Of course you also use flash for these too.

With this method, bulwark and sentinel are still available should you need to eat another ww due to things going wrong, or you can alternate them on add phases for the additional mitigation if you need. Also Stoneskin yourself when possible.

The first WW is about 10 seconds once tornados starts if the support is doing their job(and throwing down sacred, super virus, virus, eye, aqu, etc) You shouldn't even need a CD (though obvious taking that chance is fool hardy). Very easy to time since once tornados start, everything should be piled onto garuda/suprana.

(blms/SMN are notorious for derping until you call them out on virusing suprana)

The only thing is the 2nd batch which has feathers. That's where most MT die, and need to be on the ball.

Basically MT's really only die 1 of 2 ways, Lack of support, or lose thier defensive CD due to stupidity.

Tanking will only get harder from garuda not easier, so it's really something tanks should be learning anyway. It's not going to get easier.

[Grembo]

If MT can dodge 2 WW's then surely Melee can dodge one? Our group never had issues with the OT pulling Suprana method, I presume pugs are a horrible mess.

[Kyana]

MT -> Garuda+Suparna | OT -> Chirada:
MT will have to manage double WW and later on Spiny Plume too.
This means high dmg spikes on MT and high risk of wipe if either MT or healer make an error.

MT -> Garuda+Chirada | OT -> Suparna:
MT still has to endure alot of damage from WW+Downburst and manage Spiny Plume.
Only viable if DDs are cappable of killing Suparna before she can use WW.
High risk of wipes from errors again.

MT -> Garuda/Suparna | OT -> Garuda/Suparna | DDs -> Chirada:
MT and OT both have only 1 mob to tank which makes swapping Spiny Plume eaiser.
No problem if Garuda and Suparna switch places between MT and OT.
DDs+healers stack and burn down Chirada. Slipstream can be dodged and Downburst damage is split between hit characters.
Less dmg spikes making it easier for healer/s to keep everyone up.
Less risk of wiping if someone messes up.

I prefer the last method.
I don't understand why the MT and healer/s should carry the whole burden of this fight just because it's "common tactic" or "it's shown in a video guide".
And people who say "only bad tanks/healers can't do this"... why can't DDs dodge 1 attack to make the fight easier for everyone?

[Skull_Angel]

Snip

I've main tanked both methods with varying strat.s multiple times (wins) and neither is harder from a MT standpoint when you know the basic timing; even for melee, Suparna's Wicked Wheel is easily dodgeable, it comes right after Friction. Using the basic strat that has the MT tank Garuda + Chirada is normally less stressful for less experienced healers because they're not going to see the MT hit that "oh &^%#!" point of <60% HP with proper CDs + shields and have a heart attack over-healing (you see this happen often with a pug healer).

With MT pulling double method, the first phase should normally be done with MT pulling Garuda + Suparna, there's no doubt there, but after that it should be taken whichever way is easier on your group. The only difficult part of tanking both Garuda + Suparna is timing Inner Beast right for 2xWW, and even that isn't too hard, it will come shortly after Friction; does IB wear off before WW hits some times? Sure, if your luck sucks, but with Storm's Path, ToB and Veng. up it still won't kill you if you've been properly shielded.

[kukurumei]

I've main tanked both methods with varying strat.s multiple times (wins) and neither is harder from a MT standpoint when you know the basic timing; even for melee, Suparna's Wicked Wheel is easily dodgeable, it comes right after Friction. Using the basic strat that has the MT tank Garuda + Chirada is normally less stressful for less experienced healers because they're not going to see the MT hit that "oh &^%#!" point of <60% HP with proper CDs + shields and have a heart attack over-healing (you see this happen often with a pug healer).

You loose about 10-15 seconds of melee dps getting out of wicked wheel range, and it's harder then MT, because melees can't just "pop a cool down". Add to the fact you also regening garuda a few percent for the phase, and the fact that the OT who is tanking suprana has to get spiny with whicked on his rear and have healers split their heals.

In the garuda+ suprana, the OT basically does not need to be healed unless he touches a tornado. Once suprana dies, neither needs any real attention, being the main reason for singe heal strat.

Bascially MT is going "Shit I can't do this, do it for me" to the rest of the members.