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  1. #91
    Player
    Aixa's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    47
    Character
    Aixa Ravenpaw
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    WEAVER Lv 50
    Helloes, I read over the last post with stat weights. Im wondering if some more analysis has been done on the proc benefit. Obviously the statweights shown show that det is superior to crit per point but gear doesnt have the same amount of crit and det when that stat is the mainstat on the item.

    Based on statweights det>crit by 1.516ish times. On gear crit has ~1.41 times the amount of det so the gap is about 7%. Could the SS proc cover that 7%?
    (0)

  2. #92
    Player
    Maelwys's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    449
    Character
    Womble O'flaherty
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by T0rin View Post
    So, we've got this damage formula: (WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (Potency/100)
    Yup, that's the same one I've been using and it certainly seems accurate.

    The formula I am using, which again, I have verified with large data sets in game to be accurate with my selection of gear sets is: 0.0693 x CRT – 18.486. This formula came from Valk's work and has been independently verified by multiple people.
    I'm aware of Valk's original formula for Crit chance (indeed, it's still listed on his methodology pages) but it's actually been tweaked slightly since then:

    Critical Hit Rate Formula Updates
    • Updated formula is 0.0697xCRT – 18.437 (old formula was 0.0693xCRT – 18.486).

    It's not vastly different, but might be enough to skew stacked stats in favour of one BIS item or another.

    What I came up with was 2 sets, identical except for 2 specific slots, that had identical stat contributions and thus identical stat weights. These two sets are:

    (Item lists snipped)

    And that's why the new sets are BiS.
    Did you consider a Melded Astral Ring? I make it better than the Hero or Allagan one using the above formulas, especially since you can meld Vit and Acc onto it.

    The ideal melds on such a HQ Astral would probably be Mk4 Vit, Mk3 Crit, Mk3 Crit and Mk2 Acc... plus either a Mk4 Piety or Mk4 SS for the final slot if you're megarich.
    (The stats would end up at 9 Mnd, 7 Vit, 9 Int, 12 Acc, 12 Crit, 8 Det... plus either 6 PIE or 9 SS)

    Indeed, I'm aiming at the following gear for my (very eventual) BIS SMN:
    + Hero's Neck
    + Tremor Earring
    + Hero's Wrist
    + Vortex Ring
    + Melded HQ Astral Ring
    + Allagan Weapon
    + Allagan Head
    + Myth Body
    + Allagan Hands
    + Allagan Sash
    + Summoner Legs
    + Allagan Feet
    + HQ Buttons in a Blanket

    With the above, I make it a total of 449 Acc, plus an additional +222 Int, 165 Crit, 111 Det and either 32 or 41 SS from gear (depending on whether the 5th Meld on the Astral Ring is Piety or SS)... with HQ Buttons in a Blanket and in-party, my Seawolf would end up with 505 Int, 516 Crit, 328 Det and be sitting at a hair under 4900HP.

    Technically maximum DPS could be achieved by picking the Heros Earring over the Tremor one... but we'd need a little more accuracy in order to cap out the pets (433 Acc with Heros compared to 449 Acc with Tremor). A compromise would be to take the Heros Earring but swap the Allagan belt for the Heros Belt (444 Acc and a slightly lower reduction in DPS) if you think that's enough to cap your accuracy.
    (0)
    Last edited by Maelwys; 01-16-2014 at 12:59 AM.

  3. 01-16-2014 01:01 AM

  4. #93
    Player
    T0rin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    395
    Character
    Torin Escarpa
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    ARCANIST Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    I'm aware of Valk's original formula for Crit chance (indeed, it's still listed on his methodology pages) but it's actually been tweaked slightly since then:

    Critical Hit Rate Formula Updates
    • Updated formula is 0.0697xCRT – 18.437 (old formula was 0.0693xCRT – 18.486).

    It's not vastly different, but might be enough to skew stacked stats in favour of one BIS item or another.
    Great to know, thank you. I updated my 'math post' to include this formula, and re-did all the math I had done that comes after applying the crit damage multiplier. All sets went up in weighted int, slightly, the "old" BiS more than the new ones. But, in the end, nothing changed in terms of BiS, and the new sets are only 0.04 weighted int less better than they were. So, they're still almost 11 int better than the "old" BiS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    Did you consider a Melded Astral Ring? I make it better than the Hero or Allagan one using the above formulas, especially since you can meld Vit and Acc onto it.

    The ideal melds on such a HQ Astral would probably be Mk4 Vit, Mk3 Crit, Mk3 Crit and Mk2 Acc... plus either a Mk4 Piety or Mk4 SS for the final slot if you're megarich.
    (The stats would end up at 9 Mnd, 7 Vit, 9 Int, 12 Acc, 12 Crit, 8 Det... plus either 6 PIE or 9 SS)
    I did. For the new BiS sets, using these weights (WD = 6.120637211, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.186899974, SS = 0.084943755) I value the Allagan Ring at 14.35910008 weighted INT.

    If I used an Astral Ring melded with SS, using these weights (refactored to use Astral stats, WD = 6.104333403, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.185618633, SS = 0.084943755) I value the Astral Ring w/ SS at 14.24856722 weighted INT.

    If I meld an Astral Ring with 6 PIE instead, I get a value of 13.48407343 weighted INT, obviously even less than the Allagan Ring.

    But one thing this does bring up is that for someone going for the Allagan Belt/Ring set, you could temporarily use a melded Astral Ring in lieu of the Allagan Ring, since it is _almost_ as good. I still have never seen the Allagan Ring drop, but I do have the belt, and I do have a melded Astral Ring, so I could start using this newer set sooner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    Technically maximum DPS could be achieved by picking the Heros Earring over the Tremor one...
    I show, using the new BiS weights (refactored to include these items instead) that the Hero's Earring is worth 16.61574991 weighted INT and the Allagan Earring is worth 16.91996375 weighted INT. So for Max DPS (which is a valid thing if doing Ex Primals that have significantly lower ACC caps) you'd want the Allagan Earring instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    ...but we'd need a little more accuracy in order to cap out the pets (433 Acc with Heros compared to 449 Acc with Tremor). A compromise would be to take the Heros Earring but swap the Allagan belt for the Heros Belt (444 Acc and a slightly lower reduction in DPS) if you think that's enough to cap your accuracy.
    443 wouldn't be enough to cap, but theoretically you can go less than 12 acc (~6?) under 450 and if you got significantly enough secondary stats out of it, it could be worth it. But this set would have 443 ACC (Allagan Ring instead of Astral Ring, since it is better) and a total weighted INT of 719.6903469, so even with less accuracy, it is worse damage.
    (0)
    Last edited by T0rin; 01-16-2014 at 01:57 AM.

  5. #94
    Player
    Maelwys's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    449
    Character
    Womble O'flaherty
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by T0rin View Post
    If I used an Astral Ring melded with SS, using these weights (refactored to use Astral stats, WD = 6.104333403, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.185618633, SS = 0.084943755) I value the Astral Ring w/ SS at 14.24856722 weighted INT.

    If I meld an Astral Ring with 6 PIE instead, I get a value of 13.48407343 weighted INT, obviously even less than the Allagan Ring.

    But one thing this does bring up is that for someone going for the Allagan Belt/Ring set, you could temporarily use a melded Astral Ring in lieu of the Allagan Ring, since it is _almost_ as good. I still have never seen the Allagan Ring drop, but I do have the belt, and I do have a melded Astral Ring, so I could start using this newer set sooner.
    I think I can see where I'm getting slightly different numbers than yours - my Spreadsheet is using the Base stats for my character, along with +30 INT from allocated points, then adds in equipment stat buffs, and finally applies food and party buffs (party buffs being applied last, after food) and THEN factors the sum of all those into the stat formulas.

    Base stats for my character are 241+30 INT, 341 Crit, 202 Det.
    Food buffs (after equipment) are 10 Crit and 15 Det with HQ Buttons in a Blanket.
    In-Party buffs are percentage based and vary slightly depending on gear, but the only one applicable to our purposes here is 3% extra INT which for this setup is 14.

    For the equipment combination I posted above (Astral Ring), I'm getting a grand total of 505 INT, 516 Crit, 328 Det.
    If I swap the Astral Ring for a Heros Ring (ignoring the accuracy loss for the moment) I get 509 INT, 520 Crit and 320 Det.

    Plugging those values into the formulas...

    First, for the Astral Ring setup:
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (505)*0.10060032 + (328-202)*0.241327 + 71*(505)*0.0036167 + 71*(328-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 238.8235116
    Crit chance is (0.0697*516 -18.437) = 17.5282%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 238.8235116*(1-0.175282) + 238.8235116*1.5*0.175282 = 259.754242980136

    Second, for the Hero's Ring setup:
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (509)*0.10060032 + (320-202)*0.241327 + 71*(509)*0.0036167 + 71*(320-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 237.70899968
    Crit chance is (0.0697*520 -18.437) = 17.807%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 237.70899968*(1-0.17807) + 237.70899968*1.5*0.17807 = 258.873420466509

    Result: an (utterly tiny!) increase in DPS for the Astral ring setup.
    (It's certainly possible I've made a maths derp here, or at least a typo copying all the formulas from the spreadsheets... but just wanted to check!)
    (0)
    Last edited by Maelwys; 01-16-2014 at 03:00 AM.

  6. #95
    Player
    T0rin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    395
    Character
    Torin Escarpa
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    ARCANIST Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    For the equipment combination I posted above (Astral Ring), I'm getting a grand total of 505 INT, 516 Crit, 328 Det.

    First, for the Astral Ring setup:
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (505)*0.10060032 + (328-202)*0.241327 + 71*(505)*0.0036167 + 71*(328-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 238.8235116
    Crit chance is (0.0697*516 -18.437) = 17.5282%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 238.8235116*(1-0.175282) + 238.8235116*1.5*0.175282 = 259.754242980136
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + 505*0.1006032 + (328-202)*0.0241327 + 71*505*0.0036167 + 71*(328-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 211.4584842
    Crit chance is (0.0697*516 -18.437) = 17.5282%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 211.4584842*(1-0.175282) + 211.4584842*1.5*0.175282 = 229.9909172

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    If I swap the Astral Ring for a Heros Ring (ignoring the accuracy loss for the moment) I get 509 INT, 520 Crit and 320 Det.

    Second, for the Hero's Ring setup:
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (509)*0.10060032 + (320-202)*0.241327 + 71*(509)*0.0036167 + 71*(320-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 237.70899968
    Crit chance is (0.0697*520 -18.437) = 17.807%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 237.70899968*(1-0.17807) + 237.70899968*1.5*0.17807 = 258.873420466509
    Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + 509*0.1006032 + (320-202)*0.0241327 + 71*509*0.0036167 + 71*(320-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 212.0815382
    Crit chance is (0.0697*520 -18.437) = 17.807%
    Crit adjusted Damage = 212.0815382*(1-0.17807) + 212.0815382*1.5*0.17807 = 230.964218

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    (It's certainly possible I've made a maths derp here, or at least a typo copying all the formulas from the spreadsheets... but just wanted to check!)
    You did. See the above bolded numbers in my damage formulas and how they affect the outcome. Those 2 numbers were not input correctly into the formulas you used when making the comparison. Hero's Ring does more damage on a per cast basis, and one thing you neglected to consider is that it also has 11 spell speed, which is 2 or 11 more than the Astral Ring, depending on how you meld it.

    But this does bring up a good point... I need to add some variables to my spreadsheet.. party buffs, race base int variations and food.
    (1)

  7. #96
    Player
    Maelwys's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    449
    Character
    Womble O'flaherty
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by T0rin View Post
    You did.
    Aha! Powers of 10, my sworn enemy, we meet again...


    That makes the Heros slightly better than the Astral which is slightly better than the Allagan.
    Possibly still a better option if accuracy is lacking, but not "better DPS".

    That explains it. Cheers!

    (I realise I ignored Spell Speed and Accuracy, I was trying to make the comparison as simple as possible. Obviously not simple enough!!)
    (0)
    Last edited by Maelwys; 01-16-2014 at 04:23 AM.

  8. #97
    Player
    T0rin's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    395
    Character
    Torin Escarpa
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    ARCANIST Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelwys View Post
    That makes the Heros slightly better than the Astral which is slightly better than the Allagan.

    (I realise I ignored Spell Speed and Accuracy, I was trying to make the comparison as simple as possible. Obviously not simple enough!!)
    If you factor in spell speed (you should), the Allagan Ring has a weighted INT of 14.35910008 and the Astral Ring has a weighted INT of 14.29614945.

    So, from a DPS perspective... Hero > Allagan > Astral.

    It is nice, that if you need accuracy on that ring slot, that Astral is almost as good as Allagan, but it is not BiS in any set.. the 4 INT is just worth too much.
    (0)

  9. #98
    Player
    Maelwys's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    449
    Character
    Womble O'flaherty
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by T0rin View Post
    If you factor in spell speed (you should)
    I know...

    The problem for me with trying to get a weight for SS (and Piety) is that it's very difficult to accurately model. For the Summoner, SS and Piety will depend on the rotation you're using... and for the pets, it gets complicated... Garuda, for example, is the usual "goto" pet. As a caster she would benefit slightly from any inherited Spellspeed... but Ifrit (useful when there's a Monk) and Titan are largely melee and would be more likely to work off Skillspeed instead. I've not come across much in the way of parsing to see juts how this effects the pet's standard "Obey" rotations let alone their "Sic" ones.

    After correcting the formula (thanks again!) your above two builds seem to work out at 229.71 on my sheet - 509 INT, 320 Det and 503 Crit.

    If I take both the Allagan Belt and the Hero's Ring, then swap the Hands and Legs around for their Allagan/Hero counterparts to offset the lost accuracy... I can get very slightly higher at 230.15 - 509 INT, 290 Det and 554 Crit. I suspect the food/party buffs are to blame.

    (And again, this ignores Skillspeed which is 389 for the first build and 378 for the second!!)

    I think that last setup might be as high as I can push my theorycrafting now in terms of DPS without losing too much Accuracy - as you pointed out, the Astral Ring makes a nice near-replacement but it just can't slot into any viable configuration as a "BIS".
    (0)

  10. #99
    Player
    jars's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    331
    Character
    Juni Esura
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    ARCANIST Lv 50
    allagen is always better than dl though? even with the crappy spell speed
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  11. #100
    Player
    Madoka's Avatar
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    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    482
    Character
    Ayukawa Madoka
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    ARCANIST Lv 50
    I get the Allagan boots and pants this week (while being on awful hotel internet at AGDQ) and you guys do all this stuff.

    I'll just be a mildly inferior SMN and maybe lot on the Allagan changes if they show up.
    (1)

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