Thief/Assassin/Rogue/Ninja Class

[BigBoss3237]

I think the mentioned class above in title are the one of the most anticipated classes that players are waiting for. I personally love sneaking around, and doing behind target DPS. Coating your weapons in poison or paralyze potions. So my question is how do you think Square Enix will implement this class? I personally feel they are going to build it upon and around the Thief class in FFXI, which I do not mind, But I hope they can take stuff from other mmorpgs, and make hide a 30 second cool down, and add weapon coating, Backstab, I know a lot of people will hate this but I really loved how WoW did rogue, and I hope SE really looks at that, and takes notes from that.

[BigBoss3237]

Because FFXIV is no longer FFXI a slower paced game play, it is fast paced, and thief needs to be fast paced, and not slow paced like in 11. The class should start out weak and then become on of the best single-mob DPSes. Some more questions, what classes are you guys looking forward to? and why, an how should they implement the class in this game, remember you have to think of the moves, and how they will be implemented into the class and game. Like Blue mage, sorry to say I just don't see how this class would work in this game, without being very restricted, or being over powered. I mean I guess they could do it similar to 11, and restrict how many stunning attacks or threat attacks, and let you set up if you want to be tank, dd, or healer.

[BigBoss3237]

I mean it could be interesting. But they would have to limit moves like say how bombs get berserk and another mob has an ability that is the same as berserk but a different name, maybe make it only allow being able to use one of those abilities. I don't know, Im looking forward to talking and learning your opinions and what not

[Sethorus]

As long as there is no stealth It will work. Imo stealth mechanisms end up being gamebreaking at pvp in several games. GW1 followed an interesting model for the assassin role, shadowsteps and high speed, which basically focus on what an assassin in game should work. Get in, kill your target, get out fast.
Emphasizing in why I am against stealth allow me to bring this simple analogy. Rock(plate), paper(casters), scissors(assassins). Paper kills rock, and scissors kill paper, but rock who should kill scissors, can't. Because rock can't find scissors .

[Kitru]

First off, you can break the 1k character limit via editing. Reading 3 separate posts that are supposed to be a single one (especially when said posts aren't even broken into paragraphs) is just annoying.

As long as there is no stealth It will work.

This I agree with for much the same reason though I'll mention that it also has a tendency to break PvE somewhat as well (mainly by allowing the stealther to skip pretty much anything and everything they don't feel like fighting). Stealth only exists in game as a DoL ability for good reason: they're not a combat class but they run around where there are often enemies so they need to be able to explicitly avoid combat to do their jobs. Combat classes don't show the same need because they're supposed to kill the stuff they get into combat with (and picking fights rather than avoiding them).

Stealth/combat avoidance is, however, something of a trademark capability of the THF/NIN in the FF series as well as across MMOs in general, so I doubt there will be nothing reminiscent of true stealth. I would expect them to have an ability that causes them to disappear/vanish for short periods of time (5-10 seconds; until they attack, of course) that acts as their enmity drop (but not complete enmity drop) and possibly a DPS CD of some kind (first attack is auto-crit). The CD and short duration would prevent PvP abuse, the lack of a complete enmity drop prevents it from being your "lol, out of combat" card, and the explicit combat benefit gives you a reason to use it more than once in a blue moon (enmity dropping/management is largely unneeded because tanks can simply generate so much so easily).

In general, I really do expect it to follow a similar general playstyle as MNK and DRG: dancing around between back and flank to maximize damage. MNK already manages pretty fast paced combat (GL reduces their GCD significantly) so I'm pretty sure it'll follow a similar model, only with standard combos and more burst. I'm confident we'll get Steal/Mug but I sincerely doubt that it will actually provide loot instead of some variety of unique resource management. I've actually got a THF/NIN build in my signature that basically lays out largely what I expect to see (the rest of the thread gets pretty deep into discussion on the top).

[Jim_Berry]

I grew up in FFXI as WHM in 2005. I became a NIN in 2008, then COR in 2009. While going back to WHM in 2010, COR was my go-to job during serious play while using WHM as needed.

That being said, I'd like COR in FFXIV, but I doubt it will be the same, like how BRD is different in both games. If COR does remain the same or close (I felt WHM played the same), I'll be all for it.

I liked RNG as well, but playing as BRD and RNG led me to becoming a COR.

[Atreides]

Emphasizing in why I am against stealth allow me to bring this simple analogy. Rock(plate), paper(casters), scissors(assassins). Paper kills rock, and scissors kill paper, but rock who should kill scissors, can't. Because rock can't find scissors .

Oh that reminds me of that video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXX8URSUWm0

[Shurrikhan]

I've actually got a THF/NIN build in my signature that basically lays out largely what I expect to see (the rest of the thread gets pretty deep into discussion on the top).

I finished reading through this and several of your responses on the thread, and am a bit conflicted:
- If Thief were Ninja's base class, would the dependence on steal motif (which I can't see as turning into anything but a class-unique resource) fit into Ninja (and its 'ninja tools') without overcrowding and overshadowing Ninja's own mechanics?
- How do most people want the sort of layering to Ninja combat (ramp up, CD deployment, burst capability, drain capability, DoT capability, number of burst abilities and specials, ability dependence, ability sequencing) to work, and does that differ from what they'd imagine for Thief?
- If Thief isn't the second job, stemming from "Scout" or "Rogue", what should be? Frankly Dancer stemming from Thief just seems outright awkward to me (though this may be due to more unique mechanics and gameplay I'd already daydreamed about for that job), though the same could probably be said for any other single FFXIV class it would come from... Yet Assassin runs the same risk of seeming very similar to Ninja (and thereby Thief), sacrificing only perhaps some AoE dps, magic and defensive capabilities, etc. for additional single-target damage, perhaps some use of particular banes or breaks, or poisons.

This would make one job or the other likely lackluster, but on the other hand I don't think every job will differentiate itself from the opposite job or class's role any time soon. We're probably not going to see a tank from any of the dps classes, and any dps class stemming from tanks would probably be no more than disfunctional "heavy" hybrids. That's just where the class-->job system and our very much tank-and-spank gamestyle put us.

[Dixon]

I think the dagger class may start as Thief or Rogue, with some melee-based abilities like steal MP/HP, along with a number of debuffs/DOTs, and can graduate into either:

Ninja:

Water Ball- Deals bludgeoning water damage with a potency of 170, Adds Silence for 3 seconds (Ranged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 40 seconds)
Fire blade- Deals piercing/fire damage with a potency of 40, Continual Fire damage with a potency of 20 for 22 seconds. (Raged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 3 seconds)
Shuriken- Deals unaspected slashing damage to target with a potency of 150, Reduces DEX and MND for 15 seconds (Ranged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 85 seconds)
Shadow State- Become invisible for 8 seconds and lose all enmity, attacking or getting damaged by AOE will end invisibility, next successful attack will deal an additional 20% damage (This ends auto-attack until invisibility ends. Cooldown: 200 Seconds)

[Dixon]

OR Assassin:

Premeditation: Increases evade by 40% for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 60 seconds)
Exact strikes: Increases Crit% by 60% for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 85 Seconds)
Pile Venom: All DOT and debuff timers inflicted by user on single target are refreshed. (ranged ability, up to 15 yalms. Cooldown: 40 Seconds) --This is based on the base Rogue class having a number of debuffs
Smoke Bomb: Casts Blind to all enemies in a 5 yalm radius and teleport 15 yalms behind your current location. (Blind duration: 10 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds)