Thread: The Ascians in 2.1 (spoilers!)

So, having just finished up the main scenario quests for 2.1 (or at least I believe I did--there may more more lurking about), it looks like they drop quite a bit more lore about the Ascians, mainly in the quest "The Gifted." And I'm sorry for the long post, but I'm curious to see what all of you much more knowledgeable people think about this

First off, it seems that there's a hierarchy among the Ascians. The white-robed Ascian that greets you and Minfillia calls himself an 'emissary', and refers to Lahabrea as a 'warrior'. Not only that, but he also says that our ol' black-robed friend is a bit "unique" compared to the other warriors, and it seems he's not entirely fond of the way Lahabrea goes about his work (although he's glad that because of Lahabrea, he gets to meet the player character). He also chastises you when you draw your weapon, implying that the last time he was in our world, there was an agreement between us and the Ascians that emissaries were not to be harmed. An interesting tidbit about his name, too, is that unlike Lahabrea his name, Elidibus, does NOT have a corresponding Scion of Light name from the FFXII Espers. So perhaps only warriors are given those names? Which begs the question of where are the emissaries names derived from.

Secondly, although I'm not a 1.0 player, I do remember seeing a cutscene on youtube where an Ascian is shown as this huge, cloaked, skeletal figure. Turns out that how one sees an Ascian is dependent on their mastery of the Echo. Elidibus says to Minfillia that people perceive the Ascians as "shadowless", "formless", and I believe 'faceless,' and that is why so few people can see them. Yet when Minfillia clearly sees him, he tells her that he's impressed she's able to perceive him so readily, albeit as a "crude approximation." He also says that she can only see him because she's both aware of Ascian's existing, and that she can perceive his presence with the Echo, unlike Tataru who walks in during their conversation, but only sees Minfillia--Tataru had neither the "knowledge" nor the "understanding" to perceive his presence. So does this mean that Ascians appear as they do because that's how we assume they look? So far, all accounts by the Beast Tribes refer to them as being cloaked figures, as do many other accounts. Is it because we believe them to exist as such that they appear so?

And the last bit about all of this that surprised me was how interested Elidibus was about the Echo. He seems to hold Hydaelyn's gift in high regard, unlike Lahabrea. And when he tells Minfillia that he comes in peace, he also mentions how if everyone was able to understand and perceive the Ascians that "There would be no strife between our peoples--we would be of one mind." So, does this mean that the Echo's power--gifted to them by Hydaelyn--is very similar to the Ascian's power, which presumably comes from Zodiark? Or is he simply saying that everyone would eventually see things their way and start believing in "The One True God"? Also, he refers to the Calamity as "the Ardor", and brings up how Hydaelyn makes sure to protects Her children--just an interesting phrase Elidibus mentions.

Anyway, that's all I've got out of this quest. It's not really much, but I'm curious to know all of your opinions about this. I'm no lore expert--heck, hardly even a study of the lore--but I do enjoy the backstories for certain parts of this game, the Ascian's being one of them.

EDIT: Finally went back and re-watched the cutscenes and took some notes. It's edited now to be both much more accurate, AND more legible. Serves me right for typing it up when I'm tired, haha!

Elidibus was the Hell Mage and Lucavi Serpentarius/Ophiuchus who summoned Zodiark in Final Fantasy Tactics, in the super dungeon post game. He also used Ultima Magic.


http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Elidibus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn8DBKf3fQk

This is looking more and more like we really are getting back to Final Fantasy roots. A modern reimagining of the original concept, perhaps?

The Warriors of Dark, chosen of the Crystal of Darkness - Zodiark
The Warriors of Light, chosen of the Crystal of Light - Hydaelyn

Each side fights against perceived imbalance, causing imbalance anew? Back and forth? Astral - Umbral - Astral - Umbral?

Elidibus referred to what we call the Calamity as an Ardor - the exact opposite. Are there events that we'd refer to as such when it shifts the other way?

This is getting interesting...

Originally Posted by Mysteltain

So does this mean that Ascians appear as they do because that's how we assume they look?

I latched onto that line, as well. It might be a way to explain why they looked as they did to us before and look human now, as we talked about that quite a bit when we first found out what Lahabrea was. Perhaps SE took notice? I wonder what other forms they might take on as we get to know them better. Maybe someday we'll square off against the complex Esper-like forms? Possibilities, possibilities.

I'm starting to believe that the Ascians are beings from the Void, and that the Void is the world surrounding Zodiark, much like Eorzia is to Hydaelyn. Eldibus and Lahabreus summoned quite a few Voidsent in their respective story lines. Final Fantasy has had a history of the dual world, and the name drops of Krile and the Baldesians hints to such like was in FFV. Perhaps the Ascians are the ruling class of their world, with the Baldesians being a sort of resistance group.

Also something I was wondering about with Bahamut, the Coil, and Dalamund. Could it be that Bahamut is a physical dragon/dragon god that was being kept severed within the Binding Coil, and that Dalamund was a weapon that siphoned his power as he was trapped? Thus when the moon "fell" it released the aether it had been gathering and created a "Primal" Bahamut that was able to attack the lands. This would explain why it disappeared during that five year period the players were missing. There are hints that the Allagan Empire could control dragons, so could they have captured and subdued the ultimate dragon to be used as a weapon?

Originally Posted by Alberel

He says that Minfillia's forebears are to blame for not passing the knowledge on so I think it's correct to assume he was referring to a specific understanding of sorts between the civilizations of old and the Ascians and not just general etiquette.

I'm not so sure, I went back and watched the cut scene again and immediately after he thanks you for the spectacle (and you draw your weapon) he says...

"Have the laws of man grown so twisted in my absence that it is now permitted to lay hands upon an emissary? You bore witness to my audience with the Antecedent, did you not? Then you know I acted only in self-defense."

He brings Minfillia up, but not in direct relation to his previous comment, rather just to explain his actions earlier. I still hold that he's referring to general etiquette and not something specific.

I think your theory about the echo and seeing back far enough in time is spot on. Obviously the worshipers of Zodiark feel 100% justified in what they do, to the point where they basically say 'If you knew what I knew, you would agree with me.'

Urianger makes mention to the fact that those who have gone off to explore new lands have often circled back to their ancestral homes and not recognized the tattered banners of their forebears. I don't think Urianger's statement was just a means of complimenting the player on having a sense of the bigger picture. I think it's a way for the devs to push home the point that, as Elidibus said, "humanity" had contact, even diplomatic contact, with what we now call The Ascians millions of years ago. Elidibus implies this to be the case, implies that it was millions of years since he had entered our plane of existence and spoken the common tongue with "humans." This being the case, Urianger is hanging a lantern on the fact that previous users of the echo didn't do a very good job of passing down their knowledge and wisdom and perhaps, not even knowing he is doing so, doing some exposition on why we find ourselves in our current situation. Elidibus even expounds on the failings of oral traditions. He talks at length about how only those with The Echo have an easy chance to see them, that even with The Echo we are only seeing crude approximations of what they actually look like.

Alberel may be correct in asserting that Elidibus believes we would be of one mind through mastery of The Echo because we'd be able to experience the event that lead to what the Ascians perceive as an unbalance between haedelyn and zodiark.

Another theory is that The Echo may be some form of Hive Mind or Collective Consciousness. Minfillia was aware that you'd taken a dive into her encounter with Elidibus when you found her collapsed, of course. The exact function and limitations of The Echo are not fully known. Elidibus may have been quite literal when he was saying that "we would be of one mind." We don't know if Ascians have the same capability.

The epilogue was interesting. It's always fun when the antagonists have multiple factions. Lahabrea's group is clearly proceeding with their plan by encouraging more summonings (GKMM13) and more powerful (and therefore aether-draining) summonings. When you attune to Garuda EX, a black-masked Ascian can be seen briefly. It was like a subtle reminder that these more powerful summonings are no accident. This whole segment of the main storyline seemed to serve 2 purposes: To shake up the antagonist situation by dropping hints about our enemies and allies (Elidibus and Krile / Beldesions respectively). The other is to move our headquarters to Endgame Hub while providing a satisfying conclusion to the Ul'dah 1.0 storyline.

On a completely unrelated note, I feel like, despite joining The Scions, F'lhaminn has been completely sidelined. Though I suppose there's only so much time to spend developing each NPC... I didn't play any of the other 1.0 city states, but I'm hoping that if they had any loose threads that they will eventually get the same treatment Ul'dah got in this patch. Leviathan is coming next patch, maybe Limsa will get it's day in the limelight. If the next patch follows the example of 2.1, Leviathan will be necessary for story progression.