Thread: The 2.1 Inner Beast change: He's not the Mesiah! He's a very naughty boy!

Originally Posted by Exstal

Hm, I can't find anything wrong with this. Damn. You win this time, Paikis.

I can. He's using unrealistically high IB heal numbers and wrong information for everything else.

I'm wielding Bravura +1 with a majority of my gear i90 (I just have gloves, helm, earrings, and 1 ring to go) and my Inner Beast heals me for 1.3k without Berserk/crit. He's talking about getting healed for 2.1k in a full group *without* crit or Berserk and is saying that 1.5k is "average" (I kind of have to laugh that the average he claims to get in raid is 40% higher than what he's getting when he "testing" on a dummy; that right there should tell you that something is wrong). My BB with Maim, Storm's Eye, Unchained, crit, *and* Berserk hits for ~850. Get rid of Berserk and the crit (Inner Beast ignores Defiance so we leave the Unchained numbers) and you get a 280 potency attack hitting for 404, which, when you buff that up to 300 potency, equates to a 433 hit, or 1.3k heal without either of those. He's inflating the heal on IB; based upon my numbers/experiences, he's inflating it by about 15%.

Now, on to the rest of everything.

He claims that big hits always come with a wind up so that the 100% heal on new IB will be wasted. Except that the wind up on most of them is less than a GCD and they always drop 1-2 auto-attacks on you right before. On Titan, who is pretty much the weakest of the burst damage dealers, hits for roughly 2.1k before Mountain Buster (600 auto-attack, 1500 Rock Buster). Caduceus 3-4 stack hits for ~2k before Tail Swipe. Twintania does the same. Pretty much *every* incidence of burst damage is prefaced by a big enough hit that, if you don't get a heal during the wind up (or an absorb shield), you're going to go down. So, unless you get lucky and dodge those attacks, you're going to get the full value of that 100% heal that's staying on there.

As to the assumption that only "several" fights hit you for 5k in 6 seconds, every single fight that *is* a tank check hits you for *harder* than that in 6 seconds. A buffed Dreadnought hits that hard regularly; Caduceus with more than 2 stacks hits harder than that with Tail Swipe; Twintania hits *way* harder than that with Death Sentence alone; Titan hits harder than that with Rock Buster>auto>Mountain Buster and even more when you factor in the Tumult that follows half of the Mountain Busters. 5k is a laughably low estimate of damage taken in a 6 second burst damage time frame is concerned. Most of the time, a 5k hit is the damage from a single attack, which means that, to get only 5k, you have to ignore the other 5 seconds of the boss wailing on you. Pretty much the only fight in Coil where it's a reduction in effectiveness compared to current IB is turn 2, which isn't anything approaching a gear check; it's a mechanics check. The only way that you're not going to see the number of fights where the new Inner Beast is *better* as less than a majority of fights is if you count content that you're laughably overgearing: talking IB in Ifrit HM, Garuda HM, AK, and WP when you've got i90 gear is simply insipid. AK, WP, and Ifrit are all built to be run in entry level 50 gear and Garuda is designed for WP/AK grade gear.

4 fights where new IB is better than old IB might not seem like much, but when you realize that there are only 5 relevant endgame fights, you realize that it's a helluva lot more than he makes it out to be.

His math only makes sense if you trust his fundamentally flawed baseline assumptions and are ignorant of the content. He's inflating the value of Inner Beast by 15% and is laughably ignorant about how much damage tanks actually take in 6 seconds because he only looks at a single attack dealing damage, rather than the 2-3 auto-attacks that are also going to be thrown at you either before or after (remember, you don't have to use it "immediately* before the big hit with the remaining time only working on followup damage; on Titan, you could use it while Titan is dropping Landslide because Rock Buster, the auto-attack, and Mountain Buster are all going to land within 6 seconds of Landslide and that's well in excess of the amount of damage needed to make new IB better).

His math might be right, but the numbers are wrong enough that his conclusions are painfully wrong.

Inner Beast healing can overheal and be wasted. 20% DR cannot. /thread





Also, new Inner Beast gives constant 20% bonus healing compared to 15% at 5 stacks of Wrath only. New IB > old IB.

Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Inner Beast healing can overheal and be wasted. 20% DR cannot. /thread

Also, new Inner Beast gives constant 20% bonus healing compared to 15% at 5 stacks of Wrath only. New IB > old IB.

THIS right here, ladies and gentlemen.

Sure, in MANY situations, I've been down to sub 1k hp and hit berserk and IB and healed for 3k+, but as that was happening, I also got hit by 2 lustrates and a Cure2. If I never used IB, I would have been healed to full. I used IB, lost my 15% healing buff, got healed to full anyway, and wasted that 3k heal.

What I've learned from playing war all this time is this: You are a tank not a healer; TRUST your healers to do their job. Fact of the matter is this, healers are not going to wat and see you to heal yourself if you dip low. They will react because it is their job to heal.

Also, my "average" IB heals me for 1300-1500 (non-crit, maim, no berserker, maybe slashing buff). I am baffled as to how people average 3k+ IBs.

Current IB only lets you heal up after you already survived the big hit for which WAR doesn't currently have a bunch of options that aren't a party member doing something they could also do for a PLD - Foresight might be in the top 5 options, which is laughable (getting a little help in the patch in this department, though). Your healers can generally ensure you live after you survive after the big hit if they're at all competent. Which just makes the ability look shiny but rarely actually has any impact (to be fair, sometimes it does make a difference). Especially because there's often a lot of low damage after that burst making it pretty easy for healers to top you off again before the next burst (most cases). IB basically tries to do the same thing as your healers, who's entire purpose is to output green numbers - they're much better equipped for that task and on hard content will probably be spam healing (aka overhealing, aka making the IB heal even less relevant).

You didn't touch on how future proof IB is (because nobody but the devs knows how future content will look - particularly how the tanking situation will look in 24 mans if we don't get the "3 groups that split up a lot" that CT will apparently have) and instead only looked at content we have available right now. A little short sighted, if I can be blunt.

If we get a fight in the future that's based around one MT + ~6 healers in the party, you can bet the boss is going to be hitting like a truck at all times. The heal of IB in that situation (if it comes up - future content speculation and all that) will be far less relevant. The more healers assigned to a tank, the less useful a tank's self healing will be and vice versa.

You also seem to be comparing how much your personal IB heals for compared to the damage output of content you severely outgear. It would be more fair to compare how much both versions of IB would do for someone that's at the gear level of a fight rather than the gear of a tank that vastly outgears it. If we take Titan as an example, full DL (hop ring) + Vit allocation puts a WAR close to/over 7k depending on weapon. That's already overgeared for Titan HM, though. I've had 6k WARs (or slightly under) that I've healed on Titan. There's just less margin for error, like any case of being at gear level vs being overgeared. If you were to find some numbers for that, then while you're at it you could also determine how close to max health a WAR has to be for each version of IB to not instantly faceplant when the attack hits (aka, which version is more forgiving).

And the only major/common complaint I'm seeing is based on the heal going from 300 to 100%. They could easily tweak it and put it at 150% or some other number that makes sense based upon further analysis/data/whatnot (like considering it being used before instead of after, thus more likely to overheal, etc.) while still making it a lot more future proof than the current version. It's obviously meant to be a sidegrade from the current version, so if they feel it underperforms they can easily make a small adjustment like to the heal%. Campaign for that. Self heal is of more use on smaller content (where the incoming damage is low enough for the 20% to not be as useful) while the % DR will scale with high damage output content (where the heal is less relevant) making IB more useful everywhere.

Originally Posted by Kitru

I can. He's using unrealistically high IB heal numbers and wrong information for everything else.

I'm wielding Bravura +1 with a majority of my gear i90 (I just have gloves, helm, earrings, and 1 ring to go) and my Inner Beast heals me for 1.3k without Berserk/crit. He's talking about getting healed for 2.1k in a full group *without* crit or Berserk and is saying that 1.5k is "average"

It's well known that Paikis is a huge advocate of Gryphonskin. Your lodestone has you wearing different accessories, though no idea if you swap back and forth. The extra STR could explain the slight difference in his 'average' amount, though it still appears there was a lot of 'eyeball it' math going around.