Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38
  1. #1
    Player
    Paikis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    370
    Character
    Paikis Pryslack
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    MARAUDER Lv 50

    The 2.1 Inner Beast change: He's not the Mesiah! He's a very naughty boy!

    The Inner Beast change is not a buff, it isn't even a neutral change. This is a flat out nerf on all content that isn't Twintania, and even for Twintania it is either somewhat neutral or still bad depending on crits and Berserk usage.

    Now that that's out of the way, let me explain why this is true.

    In the current game, Inner Beast heals me for about 2100 in a raid with no crit and not using Berserk. However, I am going from memory here and I don't have a screenshot of this. Getting one would prove bothersome, so i went and punched a dummy all by my lonesome and got an average of around 1500 healed. For this thread, I will use this number (500/1500) as it is about what I used to get with only 2 pieces of i90 and gryphonskin.

    The changed Inner Beast will heal you for 100% of the amount damaged (500) and then apply a damage reduction of 20% for 6 seconds. So anytime the 20% damage reduction reduces damage by more than 200% of the damage done by Inner Beast (1000), the changed spell is going to be better. Which means any time you take 5000 damage or more over that 6 second period, a winner is you!

    Looks great, there are several encounters where you will take 5000 damage in 6 seconds, even Titan will hit you that hard with Mountain buster followed by Rock Buster or an auto-attack! But here is where it starts to fall apart.

    First, lets look at that 100% heal that Inner Beast still has, and think about when we're using the ability and what the likely outcome is. You want to use this ability a second or two before the big hit you're trying to counter. If this DR buff behaves like other buffs, it's not going to be instant and you'll want to have it active for a second or two before the ability you're trying to reduce. As such, you are likely to only reduce the attack you're trying for and anything immediately following, it simply doesn't last long enough to get the next attacks and since most large hits come with a wind-up, you are unlikely to get anything before it either. So, you've used Inner Beast a second before the big hit, and you've received your 500pt heal. If you're not at full health at this point, then your healers are struggling and it might be useful. However, you should already be at full health and with the way spike damage in this game works, if you're not at full health, you're probably going to die. So quite often, this heal is going to be completely wasted as overhealing. Now, if we ignore this heal, then you now have to be taking 7500 damage within that 6 seconds. Still doable. Death Sentence hits about this hard if it is completely ignored (i.e no Virus, no Eye for an Eye) and then there's usually a plumet or auto-attack afterwards. Of course almost nothing else in the game hits anywhere near that hard, but it could still be useful!

    Next, let's factor in Berserk. Berserk can't be used for all Inner Beasts, but it can be used for some and when it is used it is 100% reliable. Berserk puts my solo Inner Beast up to 700ish (about a 40% increase) which would give me a 2100 heal. We now have 2100hp that needs to be made up by the 20%DR. This means I have to take 10500 damage from the big spike and whatever follows. We're now past anything that the game can throw at us except an un-de-buffed Death Sentence followed by a Plummet. For this to happen, your healers and mages have to be terrible, and whoever is driving the luck bus has to hate you. This does happen, but it is rare.

    Next let's factor in a crit and then the absolute best case for the current setup, a crit while Berserk is active. Crits are entirely random, you cannot rely on them, you cannot trigger them, they are completely random and you should not balance around them. Having said that, they do happen and I will account for them. My solo Inner Beast hit for 500. A crit would bring that up to 750, so we're already past the point of even the Berserk situation above, we now need 11250 damage to break even. Now let's look at crit+berserk. We're now looking at 1050 damage done, 3150 damage healed and you now need 15450 damage done to you in 6 seconds to break even. This is impossible in the current game except for one-shot mechanics that you would still die to anyway.

    Even if you pretend, and your example is full of terrible healers who don't have you at full before your big hit comes and so the Inner Beast heal gets used fully, and you're playing drunk and forget to ever use Maim or Storm's Eye, you still get 400 damage and a 1200 heal. Which means you need to be reducing a 4000 damage hit... about Titan level. Using just Maim and Storm's Eye, this is a side-grade against Twintania and a nerf against everything else in the game. Factor in Berserk and only extremely bad luck with the largest hit in the game followed by Plummet and an autoattack can compare. If it crits... then there is nothing in the game that causes close to enough damage.

    You can now start telling me why I'm wrong.
    (0)
    Last edited by Paikis; 12-14-2013 at 08:20 AM. Reason: onethousandcharacterisnotenough

  2. #2
    Player
    Paikis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    370
    Character
    Paikis Pryslack
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    MARAUDER Lv 50
    Reserved because I can.

    There is one good thing about the changed Inner Beast that I like. It gives us more effective hitpoints. So a hit that would outright kill us previously may now be survivable.
    (0)
    Last edited by Paikis; 12-14-2013 at 06:41 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    whiskeybravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    729
    Character
    Whiskey Bravo
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    LANCER Lv 50
    So you're basically saying we would need to take 8000-15000 damage in 6 seconds to make the new IB as effective as it is now? Wish I had more time to play around with war.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Kletian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    149
    Character
    Kletian Drowa
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    LANCER Lv 50
    I think you are discounting when tanking multiple mobs can add up many small hits to larger numbers. I also think saying "If it doesn't prevent as much as it heals, it's not as good" is a fair premise. Like Paikis says, the DR will let you survive something you wouldn't have otherwise because you'd be dead before the old inner beast would heal you. Overhealing is common in the world of MMOs, self healing will likely lead to more overhealing (you need it, they start casting, you instant heal to not need it) while DR would play out (you need it, they start casting, you survive from the DR long enough for the casts to go off.)
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    majokaner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2
    Character
    S'arah Rihki
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    MARAUDER Lv 50
    hey man- you probably forgot it still heals for 100% of the damage dealt so:
    Inner Beast up to 700ish (about a 40% increase) which would give me a 2100 heal. We now have 2100hp that needs to be made up by the 20%DR. This means I have to take 10500
    its actually "only" 7000 damage, not pointing everything out, figure for yourself.
    while i think the DR change is okay, looking back at the changes yoshi told us about in that other thread warrior would've been OP with 300% heal staying as it is
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player
    Exstal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,390
    Character
    Shichi Ryuuzoku
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    PUGILIST Lv 50
    Hm, I can't find anything wrong with this. Damn. You win this time, Paikis.
    (0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
    There isn't a single good reason from a *developmental* standpoint for THF to be its own class if NIN is also implemented.
    If you feel like you're using the wrong words...you probably are. <<http://i.imgur.com/XP6VemN.jpg>>

  7. #7
    Player
    Paikis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    370
    Character
    Paikis Pryslack
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    MARAUDER Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kletian View Post
    I think you are discounting when tanking multiple mobs can add up many small hits to larger numbers.
    The only time this is going to be possible is when tanking turn 4. I haven't parsed the incoming damage on this turn, but you are still looking at going from full health to dead in 6 seconds before this change will be a net gain. That simple isn't something that is happening for me. Maybe for other people with lower levels of gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kletian View Post
    overhealing
    I see this a lot. but here's the thing. You use Inner Beast immediately after a large hit when there is a lot of healing to be done and hopefully before the follow up attack that is going to (maybe) kill you. Because IB is (almost) instant you are able to time it much more accurately than your healers and so your IB should always be the first heal that will keep you alive, then your healers (who have a 2.5s cast time on their heals) top you up (hopefully to full). If there is enough healing landing between your Inner Beast and those 2 heals that you're generating Overhealing, then your healers don't need the healing bonus from Wrath stacks anyway and you haven't lost anything meaningful. You also may have kept yourself alive long enough for their heals to land if that follow up attack was going to kill you.

    Quote Originally Posted by majokaner View Post
    hey man- you probably forgot it still heals for 100% of the damage dealt so:
    Nah, it was accounted for here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    So quite often, this heal is going to be completely wasted as overhealing. Now, if we ignore this heal... <snip>
    If we're going to take worst-case scenario for one Inner Beast, we should use worst case scenarios for the other. Yes, you will sometimes get some healing out of the new Inner Beast, but more often than not, you're going to be at full health with a Stoneskin or Adloquium before the big telegraphed easily predictable attack comes in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exstal View Post
    Hm, I can't find anything wrong with this. Damn. You win this time, Paikis.
    I'd actually like nothing better than for someone to come along and tell me I'm wrong. I don't like changes that make my class weaker. While the rest of the changes are pretty good, this change in particular I'm really not happy with. I don't consider this to be a win for me. It's a loss and I'd love someone to come and show me that I'm wrong.
    (0)
    Last edited by Paikis; 12-14-2013 at 06:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    Leiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    494
    Character
    Lei Aguni
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    In the current game, Inner Beast heals me for about 2100 in a raid with no crit and not using Berserk. However, I don't have a screenshot of this, and getting one would prove bothersome, so i went and punched a dummy all by my lonesome and got an average of around 1500 healed. I will use this number as it is about what I used to get with only 2 pieces of i90 and gryphonskin.
    Raid only increases stats by about 3% though, it shouldn't make a difference of 200 for your inner beast hits.
    Take a pic, just get 7 people together so you cang et the stats you need.
    (0)
    Last edited by Leiron; 12-14-2013 at 06:31 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Paikis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    370
    Character
    Paikis Pryslack
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    MARAUDER Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Leiron View Post
    Raid only increases stats by about 3% though, it shouldn't make a difference of 200 for your inner beast hits.
    Take a pic, just get 7 people together so you cang et the stats you need.
    It shouldn't, and it may be that I'm remembering wrong... which is why I've used 500/1500 as the numbers for this thread. The bigger the actual hit is, the worse this change is for Inner Beast.
    (0)
    Last edited by Paikis; 12-14-2013 at 06:43 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Leiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    494
    Character
    Lei Aguni
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    GLADIATOR Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    It shouldn't, and it may be that I'm remembering wrong... which is why I've used 500/1500 as the numbers for this thread.
    Hmm.. I think i get around 20 or so strength.
    should be about 75 IB damage increase. Ill check it later and give you th enumbers.
    (0)

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast