Paladin BiS Accessory Reddit Discussion

[Maelwys]

I do not believe that the gryphonskin accessories make up anything close towards a 25% increase towards your overall damage, since it takes quite a bit more than 45 strength for me to see Inner beast hit for 20% more.

Are you STR or VIT stacked?

I based the "20-25% increase" figure I tend to throw about on a combination of the extra STR, Crit, Det and SS you gain going from a "BIS VIT/PARRY" build to a "BIS VIT/STR/DEX" build and the effect that has on the DPS output of a PLD that's wielding a Curtana +1.

The spreadsheet I have to hand on this PC is an older copy and I've since tweaked the builds slightly, but it'll give you a rough idea of the stat changes:

Det with full Gryphon Gear: 292
Det with full Hero/Allagan: 230
Crit with full Gryphon Gear: 368
Crit with full Hero/Allagan: 352
SS with full Gryphon Gear: 359 = 2.156s GCD
SS with full Hero/Allagan: 352 = 2.162s GCD

Plugging those values into http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ut-calculator/ (though I notice now when I link this that the calculator page has been altered recently because the old URL I had doesn't work) gave me a rough difference of:

+18.30% (Crit-Adjusted WS damage)
+26.83% (Crit Adjusted AA damage)

Because of the enmity modifiers on PLD WS (RoH combo!), I figure that it's going to be a lot closer to the WS value rather than the AA one.

[EDIT]Whilst cleaning up my more up-to-date sheet (see below) I've redone this calculation. Moving from a BIS +VIT to a BIS Gryphonskin build appears to grant just over a 14% increase in WS DPS if you try to keep Parry as high as possible with DPS being a secondary concern, and just under a 17% increase if you try to keep DPS as high as possible with Parry being a secondary concern. HP for both these Gryphonskin setups is 6694.50 HP, compared to the +VIT build's 7057 HP, a decrease of 5.14%.[/EDIT]

Can you perhaps link your spreadsheet in your siggy?
Would be very useful.

Me? It's more a personal equipment planner for my own PLD than a user-friendly calculator I'm afraid... but I'll see if I can dig out the updated copy tomorrow and export it to Google Docs

[EDIT] Couldn't convert it to Google Docs, too many formatting differences. Have cleaned it up a little and uploaded it here instead (it's a Standard *.xls file with no macros) - the link should stay valid for ~30 days.[/EDIT]

[Jahaudant]

Finally, the Dex boost also affects Shield Lob damage. PLD have very low native Dex, so +45 is actually a pretty big deal for Shield Lob. It makes for a much more solid hate lock when pulling at range.

Shield Lob damage is based on STR, not DEX. Just want to clear up that misinformation.

[Leiron]

Are you STR or VIT stacked?

Vit stacked using a +1 Curtana.

SS with full Gryphon Gear: 359 = 2.156s GCD
SS with full Hero/Allagan: 352 = 2.162s GCD

Hold up a second.
How are you running a near 2s GCD with that amount of skill speed?
Or am I misinterpreting?
I am not seeing anyone get close to that small a GCD unless they are SS stacking monks.

Unless perhaps I am misunderstanding something here.sniping for space

Ohhh I see.
Okay I didn't consider the increased crit rate.
I do not believe Shield Lob damage is affected by Dexterity I think its strength.
I know for sure Tomahawk is/was based off of Dexterity.

[Maelwys]

Hold up a second.
How are you running a near 2s GCD with that amount of skill speed?
Or am I misinterpreting?

It looks like that's from plugging those SS values into the old GCD formula, but without subtracting the base values first. Probably just a missing dependency in that older copy of the spreadsheet.

Subtracting the base (Base SS @50 is 341) I get 2.49s and 2.48s respectively (if we round to 2 DP as per the above formula)

Ohhh I see.
Okay I didn't consider the increased crit rate.
I do not believe Shield Lob damage is affected by Dexterity I think its strength.
I know for sure Tomahawk is/was based off of Dexterity.

I'm fairly sure that physical ranged attacks are based off Dex and melee attacks are based off STR... and Shield Lob is definitely marked as a Ranged attack...? Drat. Something else to test...

If memory serves, Det is technically quite a bit better than Crit for increasing PLD damage- it's why the BIS builds generally swap out the Valor Hands (15 Crit) instead of the Allagan Feet (11 Det) whenever they need a little extra accuracy.

[Gamemako]

I'm fairly sure that physical ranged attacks are based off Dex and melee attacks are based off STR... and Shield Lob is definitely marked as a Ranged attack...? Drat. Something else to test...

Even Flash, a magical attack, is based off of physical stats. The damage formula is such that if Shield Lob were based on Dexterity, you'd see extremely low damage from the attack. It is highly unlikely that DEX contributes to Shield Lob damage in any way.

[Leiron]

I can understand where he got the idea.
Tomahawk scaled with dexterity at one point.
Its very easy to test as well given that GLA/MRD have no dex at all on their armor.

[Maelwys]

Well Tomahawk is virtually identical to Shield Lob (both tank ranged attacks, both earned at level 15, both similar potency and enmity modifiers, etc etc), and Ninjiitstu's testing (which I remember seeing from the old block/parry debates) was that it was affected by both Str AND Dex... ...which sort of makes sense to me - as a ranged attack it'd probably be flagged as Dex dependent by default in the code, but if it ONLY scaled off Dex then the potency value would indeed mean it'd be barely worth using on a Tank.

I'm running Coil tonight after work, but might be able to do a quick check afterwards with both a WAR and a PLD.
Shouldn't take it too long to narrow this down via experimenting with cheap Str and Dex rings and maybe a stat potion or two.

Even Flash, a magical attack, is based off of physical stats.

Yup. I'm pretty sure Flash (albeit a spell) functions just like a PBAoE melee attack with an "added effect" blind trait.
Testing confirms it has an underlying potency attribute that scales off Str and Attack power, it just doesn't do any damage to the mobs.

[Maelwys]

I'm running Coil tonight after work, but might be able to do a quick check afterwards with both a WAR and a PLD.
Shouldn't take it too long to narrow this down via experimenting with cheap Str and Dex rings and maybe a stat potion or two.

Testing on level 49 trash mobs confirmed that the damage output of both Tomahawk and Shield Lob are not measurably buffed by a High Potion of DEX + 25 Dex from gear at level 50. Meh. However, a High Potion of STR (by itself!) did raise both noticeably.

Moreover, Dual-stat gear such as Imperial Operative Wristlets (+6 STR and +6 DEX) and Electrum Rings (+5 STR and +5 Dex) didn't appear to raise their Damage output measureably over standard one-stat gear such as +5 Str Rubellite Rings.

I stand corrected

[Maelwys]

Since it's applicable to the above discussion, I'm bumping this thread to note that Patch 2.1 increased Tanking stance enmity gain substantially, to the point at which I'd now not recommend a Tank ever bother actively trying to get any more STR in order to "keep enmity better" in Defiance/Shield Oath. After running both Turn 2 (East route) and Turn 4 this week, in both cases, enmity gain was *ridiculously* faster and easier to hold compared to prior to the patch.

Additional STR/DEX really now boils down to: 1) Increased Block and Parry Chance/Strength and 2) Extra raw DPS.

The first point is (as seen in the dozens of posts above) of debatable usefulness by itself. At best it gains a PLD an average of a little over ~1% extra damage mitigation over time (applies only to blockable damage) at the cost of a little over ~5% Maximum HP, and is a net loss in "eHP". The second point is no longer of any significance where hate generation is concerned, and you aren't going to be contributing a large chunk of your party's damage output unless your party is either very small or very bad.

Basically going Gryphonskin may reduce your fight time a tiny bit, but it won't help you Tank noticeably better now (and plenty would argue that it never did!)

TL;DR:
+ Go VIT, then MORE VIT, then EVEN MORE VIT for Tanking any content worth talking about.
+ Keep a Melded Gryphonskin set around if you have far too much gil and are a dedicated Off Tank and/or want to steamroll trash content faster.

[Jahaudant]

Semi related note, I'm pretty sure they accidentally added an enmity modifier to Sword Oath.

It's even easier to rip threat when I'm off tanking than it was before, likewise for my teams second PLD when I'm main.