Thread: Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

Originally Posted by Kitru

The fact that you still think that WAR is fine when it's been gone over *numerous* times that it's not just l2p that WAR is *explicitly* inferior to PLD just shows how much you're willing to ignore to satisfy your own preconceived notion that you're so amazing that you break the math.

Nah man, WAR isn't inferior to PLD. PLD is just OP. Totally different you guys.

Just a quick observation. I think Hiir is simply having difficulty communicating what he/she wants to say, which is WAR is not bad. It is not comparable to PLD, since PLD is OP, but I think he is stating that WAR is being played as 'intended', from YoshiP & Co.'s point of view which may or may not have been skewed via player experience.

The level of criticism toward a person’s ability to absolutely refute another’s argument seems to be a guilty pleasure for players on these forums; players seem to insinuate their intellect in a very subliminal way, thereby implying that their point of view or stance on a certain subject matter is more correct or somehow absolute. This, ladies and gentleman, is elitism. For reasons I care not to mention here, people seem to love cutting down others rather than having an actual, productive conversation.

For the people that love verbal gymnastics and to have a stage to show off 1st, 2nd, or 3rd tier college/advance degrees: “See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped 150 grand on a fuckin' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!”

Originally Posted by Kelanen

Just a quick observation. I think Hiir is simply having difficulty communicating what he/she wants to say, which is WAR is not bad. It is not comparable to PLD, since PLD is OP, but I think he is stating that WAR is being played as 'intended', from YoshiP & Co.'s point of view which may or may not have been skewed via player experience.

No, everyone understand what Hiir is stating.
No one is saying that Hiir is wrong for his basic argument, which is that Warrior is viable for content.
What everyone is disagreeing with him on, is the fact that he is then asserting Warriors are equal to Paladins, and that somehow, abilities such as Thrill of battle are equivalent to being immune for 10 seconds to all damage.

His basic argument is sound, but the rest is just poorly done.
Second, stop ripping quips! Be original man!

Originally Posted by Kelanen

The level of criticism toward a person’s ability to absolutely refute another’s argument seems to be a guilty pleasure for players on these forums; players seem to insinuate their intellect in a very subliminal way, thereby implying that their point of view or stance on a certain subject matter is more correct or somehow absolute.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're trying to communicate. I guess you mean to say that people here seek a perceived intellectual superiority by bashing others' viewpoints? That may be true in cases, but it hardly drives behaviour on in this particular forum. Some of us have occasion to get a bit testy with the antics of a dedicated few who actively ignore facts and invariably respond with "L2P, noob". You can go back to the many, many threads with good discussion of various mechanics, complete with parses and rather thorough maths, and you'll see that there are constructive discussions aplenty. These users will just throw all of that out the window and proclaim that the game, created of math, is immune to logic mathematical rigor, and will make absurd proclamations which result in pages and pages of annoyed responses.

Originally Posted by Leiron

Second, stop ripping quips! Be original man!

Not sure if this was said in jest in lieu of the actual quote or if you're serious. If you're kidding, lol. If you're serious, lol.

I hope you can distinguish between the two.

Originally Posted by Shortie

snipped for space

Fair enough.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UE&usp=sharing

Calculator (Pixel's (??) Modified)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&usp=sharing

/shrug

/wander off

Paladin has a better mitigation kit. Better itemization. It's baselines are higher for damage and it doesn't rely on damage to live.

Oh - I guess I should point out that even though Paladin does generate less hate it also requires less incoming healing (thus a PLD generates less group hate).

Anyway.



Warrior buffs are probably going to happen right around my Birthday - so that'll be a nice gift from the devs.

People really need to take theorycraft with a grain of salt.

No one has given a mathematical model for actual tanking in context. Only various ways to calculate EHP, enmity generated, damage taken over time, healing received, damage dealt, and side by side comparisons of cooldowns. Those are just components to tanking, but never the full picture.

Just because all of the individual components lead someone into thinking one way doesn't mean people who experience otherwise are exceptions.

I recommend googling:
"Widely accepted mathematical results that were later shown wrong"

Yes I know many of you will be willing to change your thesis based on counterexamples given. But just because noone has disproved your math yet doesn't mean there isn't a flaw in there. Actually, I think you should already know your flaw, the fact the you haven't accounted for the actual battle, party dynamics, and communication - the hard things to model yet many of you discount people's anecdotes when you haven't been able to do it theoretically.

How do you quantify the opportunity to inner beast after rockbuster to save yourself before mountain buster?
How do you quantify situations where using thrill of battle 3 times is more useful than 1 hallowed ground?
How do your correctly model Wrath uptime for battles that you tank swap like turn 2? Does a healer really need to heal you if you're going to swap in 3 seconds?
How do you correctly quantify the increased LB generation with War+Pal versus 2xPal?
I'm sure there are many more examples.


On a side note, if you have some computer science in you, i can better elaborate my points:

Have you ever learned about Splay Trees and Balanced binary trees? Individually splay tree operations can and easily be shown to be worse than balanced binary trees mathematically. But not until you mathematically model the whole picture do you see that the amortized running time is equal.

Computer Science is full of examples where people who use their gut feelings and intuition outclass strong theoretical results.

Look at JPEG compression (noone ever considered removing data the eye can't see, a theoretician can't quantify that when considering loss of data), look at GFX Lighting and Rendering (fastest algorithms are random approximations that work well in practice), look at skip lists (again practice works well, theory makes you think not), look at TSP (theory has never been able to achieve results of heuristics, yet heuristics can't show why they do well).

Those who can, do. Those who can't, cry about it on the forums.