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  1. #101
    Player
    Viridiana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,481
    Character
    Aria Placida
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 88
    Quote Originally Posted by HiirNoivl View Post
    if you're above 3 stacks it's Wrath V --> ToB -->Hoodswing-->Cures---Inner Beast ---> Infuriate
    So, Thrill is like Hallowed, only Hallowed is 10 seconds where your healers ignore you, and ToB is where your healers have to keep healing you. And Hallowed is where you can't die, and ToB is where you can. . .

    Yep, so similar.
    (2)

  2. #102
    Player
    Liger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    105
    Character
    Mellowlola Hime
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    I have tanked BC T1 boss as a war last night and I have relized that it becomes very difficult for war/healer to keep up to the massive damage when the boss has 3 to 4 stakes on. It seems right now PLD can survive this, but it sounds like after 2.1 PLD will not or war will be able to do the same as PLd and survive the 3/4 stakes.

    From the producer letter, what I understand that at 4 stakes the fight is suppose to be difficult and tanks are not suppose to survive it. PLD though can, that is why people complaining about war.
    In this fight most people stop feeding slimes after the boss split and my guess is the way for it to work for war is to have people feed slimes even after boss is split and keep the boss at 2-3 stakes all the time. If they end up nerfing PLD in 2.1 then the only way to get this fight done would either by kiting boss and have Dps kill it or keep the boss at 2-3 stakes by feeding slimes.
    (0)

  3. #103
    Player
    Vactus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    341
    Character
    Vactus Serakai
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Liger View Post
    I have tanked BC T1 boss as a war last night and I have relized that it becomes very difficult for war/healer to keep up to the massive damage when the boss has 3 to 4 stakes on. It seems right now PLD can survive this, but it sounds like after 2.1 PLD will not or war will be able to do the same as PLd and survive the 3/4 stakes. snip
    They said in the live letter they were't nerfing PLD or content but adjusting/buffing WAR.
    (0)

  4. #104
    Player
    Gamemako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    795
    Character
    Elysia Mazda
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyBruce View Post
    Max HP is fine as is.
    I disagree for several reasons. First, WAR eHP is lower than PLD for burst situations, so WAR is just plain easier to kill. PLD + Rampart is more eHP than WAR+ToB, and ToB is on a longer CD. Second, because Inner Beast is reactive, you can't get any benefit until HP has dropped, so you can never precast. This means that even when WAR's eHP pool is equal, the nominal HP for most situations is actually lower. In practice, this is manifested as WAR leaving a gap between current and max HP. Anyway, I've made those points in my balance thread before. I'll get back into more detail on ToB later -- it's a tough one due to the way it heals HP, which means it has some annoying scaling problems.
    (0)

  5. #105
    Player HiirNoivl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,642
    Character
    Hiir Noivl
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Leiron View Post
    You do realize that your explanation suggests being much more reliant upon the healers, rather than it being a result of the Warriors cooldown capabilities, right?
    To even suggest Warrior and Paladin are equal in anyway is wrong.
    The only area that a Warrior can claim to be as good if not better in, is enmity generation.
    This is not to say Warriors cannot do the same content as Paladins but that they do it with greater difficulty.
    If you're not using the heal buff from Wrath V as mitigation, you're doing it wrong.

    I use only two cooldowns in Turn 2 for example. Inner Beast and Foresight (and maybe Second Wind as a snack). Otherwise, I only use Wrath V. Our WHM set a new record for a single cure on me last night thanks to a crit, Wrath V and SCH heal buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridiana View Post
    So, Thrill is like Hallowed, only Hallowed is 10 seconds where your healers ignore you, and ToB is where your healers have to keep healing you. And Hallowed is where you can't die, and ToB is where you can. . .

    Yep, so similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness View Post
    I really have to ask..

    Hiir, do you honestly think ToB is comparable to HG? Like, for real? You're not meaning, "The closest thing we have", or anything?
    I need only one heal because of Wrath V and ToB after taking 4k damage. Inner Beast negated all damage taken after that. The only difference is that if the damage is large enough I might need one heal, but after that I can be left alone.

    It's hard to explain but after ToB fades I'm immediately back at full power, its like I've taken no damage. Basically, so long as I use my own cooldowns to stay above 80% my boosted health (which isn't that difficult.) My healer is not curing me. And after I'm back down to regular health I'm full. It has the same effect of HG. I tend to use it when damage spikes or when someone dies. I've done it when the healer dies. It's a free few moments where I'm not getting any heals.

    As a WAR you still have to use your cooldowns, so that's the only difference between ToB and HG. You can't just go completely AFK. But that's actually fine. PLD can't handle taking as much damage as me. PLD Needs the damage to stop coming to survive.. So I don't envy them their Hallowed Ground.

    The WAR vs PLD debate is a joke in our static. We laugh at people who say that WAR is somehow less than PLD because it doesn't allow groups to screw up or suck. We tease the PLD when he dies and tell him to go WAR. We laugh after we don't bother even passing the mob at 7 stacks of vulnerability and they pretend to whine and say "I'm WAR I can't take damage. Boohoo" The comments we make on TeamSpeak really bolster my confidence in the fact that people don't care that I'm a WAR because I know how to play it.
    (1)
    Last edited by HiirNoivl; 10-31-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  6. #106
    Player
    Bigpurpleharness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    256
    Character
    Alaik Ropaire
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by HiirNoivl View Post
    .
    I'm not saying WAR can't take anything, I'm saying you're probably better served learning math and scientific method if you can't identify one is better suited for mitigating damage with 15 seconds and mental math. I don't care if it makes you feel special that you're doing something the hard way for shits and giggles. The goal is to make classes balanced, and again, 15 seconds and some mental math...
    (1)

  7. #107
    Player
    Vyserion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    108
    Character
    Khyri Nhai
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by HiirNoivl View Post
    I need only one heal because of Wrath V and ToB after taking 4k damage. Inner Beast negated all damage taken after that. The only difference is that if the damage is large enough I might need one heal, but after that I can be left alone.

    It's hard to explain but after ToB fades I'm immediately back at full power, its like I've taken no damage. Basically, so long as I use my own cooldowns to stay above 80% my boosted health (which isn't that difficult.) My healer is not curing me. And after I'm back down to regular health I'm full. It has the same effect of HG. I tend to use it when damage spikes or when someone dies. I've done it when the healer dies. It's a free few moments where I'm not getting any heals.

    As a WAR you still have to use your cooldowns, so that's the only difference between ToB and HG. You can't just go completely AFK. But that's actually fine. PLD can't handle taking as much damage as me. PLD Needs the damage to stop coming to survive.. So I don't envy them their Hallowed Ground.

    The WAR vs PLD debate is a joke in our static. We laugh at people who say that WAR is somehow less than PLD because it doesn't allow groups to screw up or suck. We tease the PLD when he dies and tell him to go WAR. We laugh after we don't bother even passing the mob at 7 stacks of vulnerability and they pretend to whine and say "I'm WAR I can't take damage. Boohoo" The comments we make on TeamSpeak really bolster my confidence in the fact that people don't care that I'm a WAR because I know how to play it.
    I'm playing catchup here but, it sounds a great deal like your argument is "I know how to play my class, My class is fine. Everyone who disagrees is just bad," and you've been using specific anecdotal evidence to point out how your FC is doing fine in BC with you there, so your class is both fine and equal to Paladin. This is ridiculous for a lot of reasons, but everyone has essentially pointed out these facts.


    PLD has greater default mitigation, a wider pool of defensive cooldowns, and an Immunity button. Warrior's only benefit is threat generation. It looks like it has a higher health pool, but those numbers are deceptive, and every single healer in the game will tell you that warriors feel squishier than paladins, to the point that it becomes problematic (or at least annoying) in later content. Now, does any of this mean warriors aren't viable? No.

    But it does mean that the level of balance between PLD and WAR heavily favors PLD, which is why most Coil groups run double PLD. It's why you can practically feel the groan when a WAR shows up in a Titan HM group. The class itself is simply weaker. And you're not going anyone any favors by seeming to argue that things should stay that way.
    (1)

  8. #108
    Player HiirNoivl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,642
    Character
    Hiir Noivl
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness View Post
    I'm not saying WAR can't take anything, I'm saying you're probably better served learning math and scientific method if you can't identify one is better suited for mitigating damage with 15 seconds and mental math. I don't care if it makes you feel special that you're doing something the hard way for shits and giggles. The goal is to make classes balanced, and again, 15 seconds and some mental math...
    Seriously, it's getting to 2 months after launch and people are still "theorycrafting" WAR while other jobs are already theorycrafted and have rotations established. That is telling. People are not playing WAR and so they don't know how to do it.



    I don't bother any more with the theorycrafting because I already know the rotations and skill-combos for a variety of ingame situations. I've communicated these to my team and anyone else with ears to listen. We have strats crafted in Coil and that's all we need. There's no need for the "scientific method" when you already know what works and what doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyBruce View Post
    So Thrill of Battle is the same as Hallowed Ground....except that you have to blow your other cooldowns to survive the same 10s a PLD does doing literally nothing. You also don't seem to realize that a PLD has other cooldowns as well.
    Those are cool downs you would have used anyway...... -.- You literally do nothing different than what you were doing before.

    WAR is getting Inner Beast and Wrath modified to placate a playerbase that took offense at Yoshi P's words at the TGS instead of taking them to heart. That and the fact that PLD was OP to begin with. There's not much more to it than that.

    WAR is fine. It's not OP but there's nothin wrong with it.
    (1)
    Last edited by HiirNoivl; 11-01-2013 at 07:53 AM.

  9. #109
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by HiirNoivl View Post
    Seriously, it's getting to 2 months after launch and people are still "theorycrafting" WAR while other jobs are already theorycrafted and have rotations established. That is telling. People are not playing WAR and so they don't know how to do it.
    We finished the theorycrafting on the major aspects of the class that you're arguing about a long time ago. The only reason it keeps getting brought up is because there are loads of people out there just like you that suffer so heavily from confirmation bias that you're willing to ignore the math because it doesn't fit with your cherry picked and observationally skewed anecdotal evidence.

    The fact that you still think that WAR is fine when it's been gone over *numerous* times that it's not just l2p that WAR is *explicitly* inferior to PLD just shows how much you're willing to ignore to satisfy your own preconceived notion that you're so amazing that you break the math.
    (11)
    Last edited by Kitru; 11-01-2013 at 02:14 AM.

  10. #110
    Player
    Sybreed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    68
    Character
    Silvaire Gerraldieux
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
    We finished the theorycrafting on the major aspects of the class that you're arguing about a long time ago. The only reason it keeps getting brought up is because there are loads of people out there just like you that suffer so heavily from confirmation bias that you're willing to ignore the math because it doesn't fit with your cherry picked and observationally skewed anecdotal evidence.

    The fact that you still think that WAR is fine when it's been gone over *numerous* times that it's not just l2p that WAR is *explicitly* inferior to PLD just shows how much you're willing to ignore to satisfy your own preconceived notion that you're so amazing that you break the math.
    Lawyered lol.
    (1)

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