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  1. #121
    Player
    Ruminate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    157
    Character
    Demi Fiend
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    snip
    I agree, someone who argues "5" then proves it with "3+2" is mathematically sound, but not always correct.

    I disagree in that it has nothing to do with real application, but rather that the equation was never "3+2" to begin with.

    Now if you want to do away with theory altogether and look at real application on whether or not WAR is on par with PLD, then you need only find the answer to these six questions:

    How many groups have successfully gone through turns 1 to 5 with a PLD/WAR setup?
    How many weeks of gearing did it take?

    How many groups have successfully gone through turns 1 to 5 with a PLD/PLD setup?
    How many weeks of gearing did it take?

    How many groups have successfully gone through turns 1 to 5 with a WAR/WAR setup?
    How many weeks of gearing did it take?
    (0)

  2. #122
    Player
    Leiron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    563
    Character
    Haeen Kazerith
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    THe majority of BC turn 5 groups that completed it were PLD/PLD.
    War/War has been among the rarest combinations and I know of no group who used such a composition and completed BC turn 5
    (0)

  3. #123
    Player
    Eardstapa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    389
    Character
    Edward Volcdegen
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Leiron View Post
    THe majority of BC turn 5 groups that completed it were PLD/PLD.
    War/War has been among the rarest combinations and I know of no group who used such a composition and completed BC turn 5
    There WAS a WAR/PLD though, so there's that. I guess.
    (0)

  4. #124
    Player
    Gamemako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    795
    Character
    Elysia Mazda
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    But just because noone has disproved your math yet doesn't mean there isn't a flaw in there. Actually, I think you should already know your flaw, the fact the you haven't accounted for the actual battle, party dynamics, and communication - the hard things to model yet many of you discount people's anecdotes when you haven't been able to do it theoretically.
    Well then, does WAR in Defiance out-DPS PLD in Sword Oath because some guy on the forums said so? It doesn't take a particularly detailed model to see the absurdity in such claims. The most rudimentary understanding of game mechanics will suffice. Honestly, it's not hard to tell where the weaknesses in theorycrafted numbers lie. Those of us who make them are acutely aware of the assumptions we made to come up with the numbers. You cannot talk down the reduction in healing bonus from using Inner Beast; it isn't listening. Neither does Eos snub a tank because it's carrying a sword. The sorts of silliness that show up in these are generally easily dismissed, and that's why you see a lot of "but your maths can't describe the game" flat denials as rebuttals.

    (Your examples are also rather poor -- it's pretty easy to quantify the mitigation from Mountain Buster, for example. It is functionally no different than dropping a percent-reduction cooldown which acts on those attacks. You can by extension estimate 5s, 10s, 20s, and 30s effective health pools depending on desired interval length.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leiron View Post
    THe majority of BC turn 5 groups that completed it were PLD/PLD.
    War/War has been among the rarest combinations and I know of no group who used such a composition and completed BC turn 5
    I still have yet to see a WAR/WAR T4 run. Getting about time that there should be enough Myth stuff to go around that 2 WAR might do it.
    (0)

  5. #125
    Player
    Delorean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    714
    Character
    Altani Dotharl
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ketch View Post
    Thumbs up Shortie for trying to point this out..... then getting debated/bashed/contradicted by someone else moments later. I give little weight to people who do not allow for other train of thoughts and so far this whole thread wreaks of them.
    well when you say things like "thrill of battle and hallowed ground are pretty much the same", people are going to laugh at you.

    But play WAR or dont. if you have feedback to submit with empirical evidence to accomodate your claims, then submit it. Complaining is not going to make the patch come sooner; the dev team has made light of the fact that they did not realize PLD would use CDs to not die to content, which created a preference of PLD over WAR.

    if they are not working fast enough, you can choose not to play the game.
    (0)

  6. #126
    Player
    Hanabira's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    454
    Character
    Hanabira Asashi
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    I really dont understand how the developers didnt intend for plds to use CDs to not die? the whole point of hollowed ground is to not die. My only wish for war would be for our cooldowns to be more than marginally useful, and heals to be big enough to at -least- make up for the fact that we have no mitigation. The whole argument that war doesnt need fixing is dumb, just because a few wars have completed content doesnt mean anything. Frankly as a war, you are there as a favor and likely a last resort, because it is all easier with 2 plds. from the beginning, they have said they wanted all content to be completed with any combination of jobs with about the same difficulty (2t,2h,4dd). the only case this seems to be untrue is late coil, 2 wars. sure its probably possible, but extremely stressful on healers.

    edit: i could fully accept being less of a tank if we were more of a damage dealer. this doesnt seem to be the case either.
    (0)

  7. #127
    Player
    nijian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    53
    Character
    Vesuvan Nijian
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Why are people bitching about WAR getting a buff, period? Would you rather content or PLD get nerfed? No? STFU then, and play WAR or go slap on another weap, and leave the WAR players to doing what enjoy doing. Playing their WAR classes.
    (3)

  8. #128
    Player
    Taemek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    199
    Character
    Taemek Frozenberg
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    People really need to take theorycraft with a grain of salt.

    No one has given a mathematical model for actual tanking in context. Only various ways to calculate EHP, enmity generated, damage taken over time, healing received, damage dealt, and side by side comparisons of cooldowns. Those are just components to tanking, but never the full picture.

    Just because all of the individual components lead someone into thinking one way doesn't mean people who experience otherwise are exceptions.

    I recommend googling:
    "Widely accepted mathematical results that were later shown wrong"

    Yes I know many of you will be willing to change your thesis based on counterexamples given. But just because noone has disproved your math yet doesn't mean there isn't a flaw in there. Actually, I think you should already know your flaw, the fact the you haven't accounted for the actual battle, party dynamics, and communication - the hard things to model yet many of you discount people's anecdotes when you haven't been able to do it theoretically.

    How do you quantify the opportunity to inner beast after rockbuster to save yourself before mountain buster?
    How do you quantify situations where using thrill of battle 3 times is more useful than 1 hallowed ground?
    How do your correctly model Wrath uptime for battles that you tank swap like turn 2? Does a healer really need to heal you if you're going to swap in 3 seconds?
    How do you correctly quantify the increased LB generation with War+Pal versus 2xPal?
    I'm sure there are many more examples.


    On a side note, if you have some computer science in you, i can better elaborate my points:

    Have you ever learned about Splay Trees and Balanced binary trees? Individually splay tree operations can and easily be shown to be worse than balanced binary trees mathematically. But not until you mathematically model the whole picture do you see that the amortized running time is equal.

    Computer Science is full of examples where people who use their gut feelings and intuition outclass strong theoretical results.

    Look at JPEG compression (noone ever considered removing data the eye can't see, a theoretician can't quantify that when considering loss of data), look at GFX Lighting and Rendering (fastest algorithms are random approximations that work well in practice), look at skip lists (again practice works well, theory makes you think not), look at TSP (theory has never been able to achieve results of heuristics, yet heuristics can't show why they do well).
    Hence why parsing is the only true value of measurement anyone should even consider. Maths is and always will be nothing more then a guide.

    By the way, I agree with everything you are saying.
    (0)

  9. #129
    Player
    Adamar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Limsa-Lominsa
    Posts
    16
    Character
    Ada Rusheart
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    Hence why parsing is the only true value of measurement anyone should even consider. Maths is and always will be nothing more then a guide.
    This would hold some value if parsing damage in ARR wasn't completely and irredeemably broken.
    (0)

  10. #130
    Player
    Taemek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    199
    Character
    Taemek Frozenberg
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamar View Post
    This would hold some value if parsing damage in ARR wasn't completely and irredeemably broken.
    Agree 100%, which is why they need to fix that parser to be 100% correct.

    Not sure if that is even possible until they start allowing people to make their own add-ons through the add on feature and even then, they may not allow us full access to the API anyway.
    (0)

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