So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Yes ideally you could just have a group, however my main issue is when job balance keeps you walled out of the pf and SAM especially is going through this. I guess you “could” tell that Sam to play something else so that he could get into the party. But that’s taking a 1% approach to a 99% issue. As I’ve stated, job balance goes much farther than organized play. Mr.Happy makes a video saying RDM is the worse caster, people eat that up, DeleteSAM becomes a community meme. People eat it and you’ll start to see this in casual scenarios too. This is the reason why people are generally upset with balancing choices because it can indirectly effect them.

And this problem will always exist so long as the community continues to have this mentality about numbers and blindly follow what we're doing without any reason to. You can make all the balance changes you want, no game will ever be "perfectly balanced" and we will always find an optimal comp. So as long as this mentality continues, the community will continue to blindly "exclude" any class that we do (simply because they see us doing it and they'll hear us say that one comp is stronger than another) even though there's literally no reason for them to be doing so.

Instead of trying to make balance changes based on this false perception, we should be trying to break that mentality so people stop circle jerking and we stop getting threads like this making completely false claims and then people misusing parse numbers in an attempt to justify it. And for the people who are committed to raiding, perhaps they should take a little bit of time to actually understand how strong or weak a class is when played optimally and why the "meta comp" most likely won't matter.

[Wayfinder3]

And this problem will always exist so long as the community continues to have this mentality about numbers and blindly follow what we're doing without any reason to. You can make all the balance changes you want, no game will ever be "perfectly balanced" and we will always find an optimal comp. So as long as this mentality continues, the community will continue to blindly "exclude" any class that we do even though there's literally no reason for them to be doing so.

I'll be using percentiles as a way to sum up increments of player skill as it is convenient

I don't mean to be rude at any point through this thread to anyone, misguided or not but, Does anyone actually believe people created this or other threads like this because they decided to complain randomly. You can't say to the 99% that job balance doesn't matter to you but to only the 1% but, then suggest that if you want to in some cases, "play the game"(sam), you should switch jobs. The idea that only 1% of the player base can truly benefit from the capabilities of the jobs has always been weird to me. Things like Brotherhood and Disembowel are very much applicable to the 99% of this game because at what point do we draw the line between 1% and the 99%. is the 1% of the people who do cutting edge speed kills? what about those groups that do Parse runs with their mains and get like 95th percentile, or even 90th. not near the top, but far from the bottom. Im fairly certain any player that can get a 85th percentile parse or a solid kill time understand that utility exist and how to use it even if it isn't to it's best extent.

Answer me this, whats the difference between a 20th Percentile player, 70th Percentile, and a 95th percentile player, are they all in the 99% or is 90+ the 1%(where is the line drawn). are the 1% better at maximizing utility, absolutely i'd be foolish to deny that however, these are issues that do effect the experience of all players. Threads like these pop up out of fear of their job becoming obsolete or overshadow. Go look at how many people felt the new AST changes caused the sky to fall for WHM. Players get scared because they 1 trick jobs, it's normal for people to be attached to them, eydis only ever plays SMN and BLM and he's an amazing player if smn got nerfed or rdm got buffed too much, would it be wrong for him to complain or is he apart of the 1%. when is it ok for the rest of the player base to be upset with balancing choices. When can MNK and SAM cry out over dragoons sheer dominance that causes them to be immediately in competition with NIN and Trick attack. MCH mains are probably loathing the day disembowel gets gutted because they'll probably fade into BRD's shadow.

You came here and challenged how misinformed everyone was and to tell them that it's of no concern to them as the 99% because the 1% said everything is fine, but what im trying to get you to understand is that they aren't upset for nothing, they might be exaggerating but they are issues.

I'm sure you and i both know, it'd be impossible to balance around everyone's ideals however, WHM & RDM players are tired of being undervalued after prog, so regardless of what howard and jump say/said/think or anyone for that matter. thats a valid desire for them to have and there isn't anything you, me or, anyone can say about that.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I'll be using percentiles as a way to sum up increments of player skill as it is convenient

I'll answer this in bits since char limit

Does anyone actually believe people created this or other threads like this because they decided to complain randomly

Not randomly, but they make threads like this based on false pretenses and a very flawed justification by misusing parses in an attempt to "prove" their point. Making statements like "SMN is the 2nd highest dps in the game" when we can easily prove otherwise is why I have such a problem with threads like this (and even more so that people eat up that title and think it's truth). Maybe at the 50th percentile level of play that's true, but I don't think that's the skill range we should be looking at to make legitimate discussions about class balance no offense.

what about those groups that do Parse runs

This is far from your original point about party finders for PROGRESSION excluding classes that we deemed subpar. If a group is wishing to do parse runs, then they're going to want the best classes that allow them to do just that. There will always be an optimal comp in that aspect and people have to accept that. For the others however who are simply excluding classes for progression purposes (more specifically to the casual/midcore crowd, for hardcore prog composition will matter to a degree), or statics who just weekly clear, that's where the mentality issue shines. You don't need a meta comp just to clear content.

are they all in the 99% or is 90+ the 1%(where is the line drawn)

The line is drawn between those who actually attempt to optimize their game play in such a way where raid comp will actually matter. If you're attempting to legitimately speedrun, comp will matter. If you're attempting to do hardcore progression, comp will matter (to a degree, it's not as strict as speedrunning but you will definitely choose stronger classes for prog that offer clear advantages for the goal of clearing content easily and quickly). If you're doing parse runs then to some degree you also fall into this category. But that's really it. Raid comp does not matter for the sole sake of clearing content really, raid encounters are not tuned like Gordias.

when is it ok for the rest of the player base to be upset with balancing choices

When there's a legitimate case to be made for it. Like the beginning of stormblood when DRG/MCH/SMN/WAR and to a lesser degree BRD and BLM had obvious problems that were even further exposed at higher skill levels, those were balance changes that needed to happen. The recent changes to AST could be detrimental to the balance between healers because if AST actually replaces WHM in prog going forward, then you do have a legitimate case to be made for WHM. Before those changes though, WHM had a very clear advantage in prog. Saying SMN needs a nerf because it's "the best caster" is not a legitimate reason to me, not when DRG + NIN + BRD has been the holy trinity for years and has continued to be untouched while SMN is still struggling to break into that 4th spot. Not when RDM's "strength" is something that can't be shown in parse numbers but is still one of the most overpowered support utilities in the game.

they might be exaggerating but they are issues.

What are these issues? SMN's damage is not a real issue, BLM's damage is not really an issue (BLM is in a decent place right now, maybe they could use a very slight buff but as I said, they're extremely close to SMN with the utility SMN has factored in), people will just inevitably hate on BLM (and SAM) because it's a class that provides absolutely no utility and too many people are shortsighted and only think about what a class can provide to them personally. RDM is not really an issue considering the utility they currently have.

thats a valid desire for them to have and there isn't anything you, me or, anyone can say about that

Yes there is, its "get over it". Accept it because as I said, it's going to happen no matter what balance changes you make. There will always be an optimal comp to be found. Maybe SE will directly (or indirectly) nerf AST to the point where WHM finally has its time to shine outside of prog, but the same issue will be there only its AST sitting there. RDM will forever be a prog only job so long as it can verraise an entire party in 15 seconds. And honestly, I think it's perfectly fine for some classes to be favored for progression while others are favored for optimizing. The class has its use and it would be highly desired for that purpose. But beyond that, this exclusion that the community has towards those classes for anything outside of what I specifically labeled above, that's a mentality that just has to change among the players themselves (yet it probably won't)

[Wayfinder3]

First, My point for mentioning groups for parse runs, is to find out "does the 1% apply to them or not?"

second, nobody denies that you don't need meta to "clear" content, but many players prefer meta(prog or not) and thus warrants reasons for them to exclude jobs even if they don't need it. I've not seen any SAM uwu clears but i won't say there aren't any progging it. i refuse to believe SAM's decided they weren't good enough to go for early uwu prog which leads to me thinking these groups cleared without it because they didn't want it. SAM's have a right to be upset about this pf or not

third, SMN is very strong among all casters so i understand why people are looking at it and believing it's "too" strong when compared to the other 2, however i do agree that nerfing it won't help casters, only hurt them since as i even stated BRD and DRG are far more oppressive jobs if we're talking OP. RDM's raise is powerful and undeniably so at that however, once the training wheels come off. it's not doing too hot and players notice that couple with smn being a solid alternative means players are trading the possibility of having 1 job rez the entire team which is beyond situational and unlikely given mp constraints but it's still powerful if it can get even 2 people for more dps and a single instant rez a minute far more practical.

fourth, SAM and MNK vs DRG or NIN, is a geniune real issue, BRD's overwhelming place in this games meta could also be seen as an issue. RDM low dps could also be increased a bit or a possible rework, but raise is preventing this from happening. HIGH dps jobs low utility are also simply bad and have yet to produce any reason to use them. you've even stated that the best blm's will have to go through more work to be better than even a SMN. we live in the age of ease, why spend time trying to get a master blm when i could get a master smn who's better anyway. thats how people think. MCH down to the way it plays is pretty messy, but i guess this isn't a real issue \o/. {INSERT LOCKED OUT PF MEME HERE}, trick attack has basically been the meta defining ability forever.

Fifth, "get over it" lol you could say that, you wouldn't be wrong either but, people will always want their main to be the best, so they'll always advocate for better. unless SE decides to rotate meta, which is more work then it's worth. I agree to an extent here i think RDM and WHM fall pretty hard compared to their counterparts after prog and they really aren't that much better than the other choices. AST and SMN cleared UWU and SMN was even world 1st, i think players don't like that the jobs that are good for optimizing don't fall of in prog as their counterparts do after progression. your "get over it" doesn't mean anything to anyone. If you've come to tell them they're all wrong and to get over it, why not just do that and be done with it?

[xxPheNoMeNa]

And those players preferring meta is part of the mentality. Sfia just went back and attempted to play BLM on an UWU reclear today. He did his initial prog playing RDM and SMN, but he's going back and playing his favorite class because he wants to. Maybe a group won't take a SAM for initial prog, but clear the content and then go back and play it.

SMN is very strong, but it's not so strong that it's "overpowered". RDM still has its niche, BLM is right on its tail and is honestly one small buff away from being outright better than SMN theoretically. That's pretty decent balance. But how the community would perceive that statement would probably be "so SMN offers more overall damage than both classes, it's too strong".

I don't think Monk is a genuine issue right now, Monk is actually pretty disgusting but the limiting factor is whether an encounter allows for triple melee or not. The only glaring issue with melees is SAM. BLM requires more effort to play optimally yes, but "if" it was hypothetically the best clear cut option, people would play it.

"People will always want their main to be the best" Yes, and people need to accept that only 8 classes will be taken in a raid and we shouldn't be advocating for balance changes just because "but I wanna play red mage".

[Wayfinder3]

we shouldn't be advocating for balance changes just because "but I wanna play red mage".

rdm usually want more dps so that they aren't so far behind, im not sure rdm is currently at it's maximum potential for rdps/pdps while being able to still have verraise but, none of them or at least none that i've seen want rdm to be meta. now we both know that verraise is rdm and if they remove it. rdm becomes a great value smn if it isn't that already. personally im just waiting to see how 5.0 shakes the jobs up. If i could make at least 1 change, i'd start with manafication and may streamline the burst windows every 120secs. Change it so that it Refreshes your Movement cds(as it already does), makes the next 3 weapon skills enchanted and reduces the cost of those 3 skills to 0 instead of doubling the gauges current values. it sucks having to do a melee combo right after a trick window because of poor rng.

[Neela]

And this problem will always exist so long as the community continues to have this mentality about numbers and blindly follow what we're doing without any reason to. You can make all the balance changes you want, no game will ever be "perfectly balanced" and we will always find an optimal comp. So as long as this mentality continues, the community will continue to blindly "exclude" any class that we do (simply because they see us doing it and they'll hear us say that one comp is stronger than another) even though there's literally no reason for them to be doing so.

yeah... its smn now... and another cls if smns time to shine fades some day... for rdm, well I'm with you but you see most of raiders won't accept advantages out of prog or savage at all. rdm will always ask for more dps... with the same arguments ever since. you can remind the com as often as u want its no reason for them to see it through.

and about being overpowered... smn still was strong at release of 4.0 Eirene & a handful of "true 1%" smn showed that already, while casuals and (wannabe-) pros cried for balance. now smn is way easier and more people with less skill/motivaiton can archive those numbers -> building an op status around a cls which was nearly as strong with release but harder to archive. same with blm, the best blm perform great - but those who aren't that perfect in play cry for balance again.

and this will continue with every cls in every major update... thats why top fflogs parses are actually not the best "argument" at all but well... like Pheno said numbers is all what matters, and mostly (I'm not saying all) don't even know how/what those numbers tell...

its not the last thread where people will throw fflogs on the table and say "thats it look at it I'm right you are wrong!"... "oh no you can't count that cause xyz – better look at this one here!" "you both are clueless its all about uwu!!!" - but is it really the point? is it really the point for 99% of the com which aren't in world first races or hall-of-fame-speedruns statistics?

[Maero]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
Have you not played Red Mage for end game? It really is as bad as most players have been saying so in this thread.
So what are players saying, Red Mage has a niche to what, perhaps introduce players to the game since outside of progression it really does not offer anything that every other job does better (dmg, utility)

Also not sure what all the fuss is about for Red Mage mains wanting changes. We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

[Neela]

Also not sure what all the fuss is about for Red Mage mains wanting changes. We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

hmm true... and I'm not hating rdms why should i... - but I could say I want to clear potd for necromancer title or be as effective in eureka/hoh on my uhm lets say... Mnk? Because I don't wanna be "forced" to play RDM for that content... sound familiar hm?... Whats your solution for that aside of "it doesn't matter cause its not savage" ?

[Megguido]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
[...] We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)